Talk:Bloody Sunday (1920)

Untitled

The following comments were moved from Talk:Bloody Sunday. Originally posted November 2002.

Titles

It's a bit ridiculous to call Collins unqualified "Irish Finance Minister" and Brugha "Irish Minister for Defence", because these were not active roles in any sense. A more accurate approach would be to say something like "assigned the post of Minister of Defence in the Ministry of the First Dáil". The Dáil certainly had de facto legitimacy in being elected by the vast majority of the Irish people, but it had no ability to exercise powers at the time. Steve Graham (talk) 11:12, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

american dilomat

i have read that the american consul in dublin was playing cards with some of the cairo gang in their apartment the saturday night before (saturday 20th of november) till very late and had been offered a bed to sleep in by one of them the consul had been very tempted but decided not too and returned to his residence early next morning the ira struck this apartment killing all the men inside if the consul had been there he would probably have been killed by the ira members who with their adrenalin flowing were shooting first asking questions later needless to say this would have been a public relations disaster for the irish nationalist movement Bouse23 (talk) 20:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment

An anonymous user wrote the following on Bloody Sunday (Ireland 1920):

It wasn't by the IRA, and it was the night before

apparently referring to the following text on this page.

following a series of assassinations of British agents carried out by the Irish Republican Army earlier that day.

Well, 'earlier that day' and 'the night before' aren't really contradictory. And investigation suggests that nobody contests that it was the IRA.

---

This is a pretty good summary of the 1920 Bloody Sunday with one very notable exception. The author emphasizes the "unathorized" and "unapproved" nature of atrocities committed by the Black & Tans and Auxiliaries. In actuality, however, these terrorists acted under the full authority of the British government for over 2 years. They were sent to Ireland by His Majesty's Government to terrorize the Irish population into submission. They did not engage in a single terrorist act (Bloody Sunday), they engaged in thousands, killing and brutalizing at random and also in carefully targeted operations. To claim that British Crown Forces could engage in illegal terrorist activities non-stop on a daily and even hourly basis for over 2 years without approval not only challenges the imagination but denies the existence of any semblance of a chain of command within the British Army. As the English themselves would say, "Not bloody likely." In short, this was state-sponsored terrorism of the first order.

I don't know anything about this subject, but "the author" (you reffered to) is you, be bold, click the "edit this page" and try to put it into the text, if you think your suggestions are more accurate and factual. Other users will review this (soon), don't worry. --Rotem Dan 04:22 21 May 2003 (UTC)

But please cite wherever you can (give a solid basis for statements presented) -- Rotem Dan 04:25 21 May 2003 (UTC)

Hey, I'm a big history buff and I recall hearing something about a bloody riot in the 1950's in Hungry being called 'Bloody Sunday'. Russian soldiers sent to quell the riot killed a whole bunch of people. Is this true?

-E. Brown 5 February 2005

About how many people do we think were killed on Bloody Sunday? The article says that 10,000 spectators were there, surely they weren't all killed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.35.119.42 (talk • contribs) .

NPOV Tag

There is too much pov banter in the article which makes it sound like propaganda.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Doctorbigtime (talk • contribs) .

In accordance with the general principals of Wikipedia:NPOV dispute please provide an explaination of what is disputed; part of the article, all of it - what is pov banter? A NPOV tag is not the same as "I don't like the tone of the content and theirfore will tag it, and cannot be bothered editing it now or improving it" tag. Djegan 16:12, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the tag until such time as POV concerns are detailed here. --Ryano 13:19, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Wasn't the U2 song about the Bloody Sunday in Derry when British forces opened fire on civil rights marchers?

Number killed

If someone ever reads this talk page who knows more about the events than I do (which is nothing) would they please have a look at the Michael Hogan (sportsman) article and clear up how many were killed that day? This article and the Michael Hogan one disagree. Cheers, Mmoneypenny 15:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I.don't see that they disagree on numbers killed, unless you question whether Hogan, as a member of the I.R.A should be included in description 'civilaan'.

There IS disagreement between this page and the Cairo Gang article. This one says 14 members were killed (and 14 civilians); Cairo Gang says 12 were killed ("eight of whom were members of the Cairo Gang, a British Army Courts-Martial officer, the two police cadets and a civilian informant"). Lizconno (talk) 03:33, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

This article is correct: see Leeson's article in the Canadian Journal of History; and Anne Dolan, "Killing and Bloody Sunday, November 1920," Historical Journal 49, no. 3 (2006): 789-810.--Cliodule (talk) 17:34, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

One problem when stating the number of people who died at events like Bloody Sunday, is whether you only count people who die on the day or people who were mortally wounded. There are many conflicting figures for Croke Park. I finally got hold of The Bloodied Field by Michael Foley, and got the dates for the deaths of the mortally wounded.

In the morning of Bloody Sunday 1920, 14 people were killed and one was mortally wounded (Hugh Ferguson Montgomery died on 10 December).

There are many confusing figures for how many people died at Croke Park. The correct figures are given by O’Halpin in his chapter in Terror in Ireland, but he does not give a list of names or deaths, so I was not 100% sure until I got the book by Foley. 11 were killed on the day and 3 died later (Robinson and Carroll on 23 November and Tom Hogan on 26 November).

There are many incorrect figures. Some write 13. One of these sources gives a list that has left out Feery. That could be because he was only identified by his wife on the Thursday. That is probably also the reason why many sources, including Joe Devlin in Parliament on the Monday and Jane Leonard in her chapter in Terror in Ireland claim that 10 people died on the day.

Many sources (including Dolan) write 12. However, none of them give a list, so it is not clear who they leave out.

So 14 died in the morning and 11 in the afternoon. But if you include mortally wounded, you get 15 in the morning and 14 in the afternoon.

HelmerAslaksen (talk) 10:35, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Use of the word 'killing'

Certain editors are insisting on the use of the phrase "killing 14 people" (or sometimes 15 people) in the article's introduction, instead of the more neutral and accurate phrase "causing the deaths of 14 people."

This is POV.

On the one hand, two of the victims at Croke Park were not shot by the police--they were trampled in the panic that followed after the police opened fire. This makes the more general description "caused their deaths" accurate.

On the other hand, the article uses the passive voice throughout--especially in the section on the morning's assassinations. It's never "X killed Y"--it's always "Y was killed by X," or usually just "Y was killed," with no mention of the person responsible. Only in this one instance are editors insisting on the active voice, and with definitely assigning blame.

In my opinion, this insistence on having the police killing spectators, while the IRA's victims are merely killed by some mysterious unmentioned agency, constitutes the use of weasel words, and compromises the neutrality of the article.--Cliodule (talk) 14:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

No in this case killed is correct, the alternative to killed is murdered. They opened fire on unarmed people. --Domer48 (talk) 19:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with Killed it is neutral.--Padraig (talk) 19:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the point Cliodule is making concerns voice - passive vs. active. Victims of the IRA: victims are killed by the IRA; whereas victims of the police: the police killed the victims. It makes it seem as if the actions of the police are worse than those of the IRA, which removes neutrality (the actions of both sides are just as reprehensible as life was taken without real purpose). There is a reason your professors always told you to use the active voice; the passive voice makes it seem as if something just happened (I always have this image of spontaneous combustion when I think of the passive voice). This article needs to be fixed to return neutrality. Lizconno (talk) 03:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. For the record, this is exactly what I meant. But since my complaint seems to have hit a brick wall of incomprehension and hostility, I'm just not willing to fight with people over this. I've already had to fight one ridiculous edit war, over the use of the term "enlisted men" in my article on the Auxiliaries, and, rather like the French in 1940, I don't have the stomach for a second. I'd much rather pursue a policy of appeasement in this case.--Cliodule (talk) 17:34, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

"Lives were taken without real purpose??" I'm not sure what you mean. These killings, whether you think they were callous murders or legitimate targets in a legitimate war, certainly proved very valuable in the IRA's efforts to paralyze British intelligence and give themselves some breathing room. And for the British, their shooting into the crowds was an expression to the outrage and helplessness they felt although it certainly was counterproductive to say the least. Overall a good article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.142.204.47 (talk) 22:14, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

How about a compromise and call it murder? 86.44.18.40 (talk) 18:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Reason for Croke Park

I've added a UCC web page to explain why Croke Park was chosen; the longstanding link between the GAA and nationalism (of all shades, moderate and extreme).86.46.196.207 (talk) 10:52, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Good sources but a more direct ref should be applied - preferably with quote. RashersTierney (talk) 11:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Agree with RashersTierney. The reference provided doesn't mention Bloody Sunday or Croke park. As such, it is a self realised conclusion to state a direct link/relationship between the GAAs association with nationalism, and the Croke park attack. If another verifiable and reliable published source is available that supports this conclusion, then you can consider re-adding. Without it however, the assertion fails WP:SYNTH. Guliolopez (talk) 11:46, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't help a reader who knows little about the background. If you needed a "verifiable and reliable published source" then half the article should be removed? I am new to Wikipedia. Would it be better to say that the reason for focussing the assault on Croke Park is unknown?86.46.195.205 (talk) 08:07, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

A ref from this page at Sport, sectarianism and society in a divided Ireland by John Sugden & Alan Bairner should contain sufficient material to fulfill requirements. RashersTierney (talk) 22:22, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Added this essay, a recent speech of September 2010 by Dr William Murphy showing mixed GAA support for the IRA across the country, but a bit more in Dublin.86.42.205.96 (talk) 12:33, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Conor Clune

The lead currently states, "That evening, three IRA prisoners in Dublin Castle..." but there seems to be a lot of doubt whether Conor Clune was a member of the organisation. Might we be better with simply "three prisoners"? Nick Cooper (talk) 13:27, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Or 'three IRA suspects' ? RashersTierney (talk) 13:43, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Done. Nick Cooper (talk) 13:16, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Conor Clune - it says in the piece that it isn't clear if Conor Clune was active, the reports in the Military History Bureau give a different view of his role with the IRA - he was an intelligence officer, and not just that but had attended company parades with Senior IRA officers, such as Peadar Clancy, for example Laurence Nugent, who was a Lieutenant in K Company, 3rd Dublin Brigade, notes that Conor Clune often accompanied Peadar Clancy when he was supervising training.

Conor Clune's sister made an application for a military pension as a surviving dependent, a partial pension was granted to her on the basis of his military service which is laid out in detail and it is 100% clear that he was an intelligence officer within the IRA, which explains why he observed company training sessions with Peadar Kearney, why he was in the hotel and why he was killed by the British, contrary to the claim that he was not involved he clearly was, and deeply so - here are the most important details from his record.

File Reference DP24871 Name Conor Clune Gender male Address detail Street Quin County Clare Country Ireland Address detail Street Siopa na Leabhra Gaedhilge, Baggot Street, Dublin County Dublin Country Ireland Date of birth 1893 Date of death 1920-11-22 Place Dublin Castle, Dublin, County Dublin, Ireland Associated files in MSPA 3MSRB283 Related files 1D412 Clancy, Peadar; DP23324 McKee, Richard MD4774 Conor Clune Civilian occupation Secretary; Clerk; Easter rising service No Organisation Irish Volunteers Rank Intelligence Officer Unit 4 Battalion Brigade East Clare Brigade Commanding Officer(s) Michael Brennan Organisation Irish Republican Army Rank Intelligence Officer Unit 4 Battalion Brigade East Clare Brigade — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.28.235.52 (talk) 23:40, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi. And welcome. If there is more biographical detail to be covered on Conor Clune, then please consider adding it (with appropriate references) to the biographical article on Conor Clune. If he wasn't actually related to the bishop in Australia, for example, then we can simply remove it from the Bloody Sunday article. And cover any confusion/refutation in the specific biographical article. (It doesn't appear to be especially relevant to his detention/death on Bloody Sunday regardless.) Please also note, however, that the military pension applications are primary sources. Written (in this case) by someone (his sister?) who presumably wasn't directly involved. WP:PRIMARY applies in such cases. And, if expanding a biographical article on the basis of a primary source, ideally that would be clear ("according to his sister's pension application...") and perhaps supported/bolstered by (independent) secondary sources. Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 10:26, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Killing of Dick McKee, Peadar Clancy and Conor Clune

Since there have been attempts by both an IP and an account to remove the term "allegedly" (and even the fact the men were beaten!) regarding their killing..

Virtually every source I have read on the subject makes it clear there are two versions of how they died. One is the Republican view that they were summarily executed, and the other is the British view that they were shot while trying to escape. Virtually every source presents both those as an allegation and does not tend to favour either, with the exception of one that hypothesises that as the men were safely imprisoned in Dublin Castle there would have been no need for a quick summary execution when they could have been tortured for much longer to extract information. As such it is completely and totally unacceptable for this article to claim that they were shot while trying to escape, and not present it as an allegation. O Fenian (talk) 15:30, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Croke Park. Why?

Just an observation, but this article doesn't realy explain why the British authorities went to Croke Park in the first place. Clearly they did not just randomly decide to go there and kill people.

Between the lines one can imagine that perhaps they did so because intelligence suggested that a virtual 'army' was gathering there, and that in view of the events earlier in the day that they were (mistakenly) very fearful that they might be fired on by numerous armed people there.

Reading the article, and the discussion, my sense is that this is still such an emotive subject that it makes it difficult for many to be wholly objective about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.19.144 (talk) 11:05, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

The match was a fundraiser for "Republican" prisoners, so the spectators could be seen as indirect supporters of the IRA. Most of them probably didn't see it as more than another football match. This fundraising aspect was in the article some time back.78.17.53.134 (talk) 00:53, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

World opinion please

FYI, doing the 1920 Akron Pros season I was researching 1920 newspapers, one in the small city of Youngstown, Ohio, the Youngstown Vindicator and it's all of the papers on page 1 and beyond. The words America or United States are not listed in this article. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 08:32, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

What are you talking about? ---RepublicanJacobite_TheFortyFive 18:45, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Incomprehensible sentence

In the paragraph Background: "The events on the morning of 23 June 1999 were an effort by the IRA in China, under Michael Collins and Richard Mulcahy to wipe out the British intelligence organisation in the city."

Both the date and the place seem wrong and "the events" is too vague. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.112.130.103 (talk) 19:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Resolved. The 'errors' were introduced with this series of disruptive edits, now corrected. RashersTierney (talk) 19:40, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

"Picture" of the Cairo Gang

In his book "Michael Collins and the Anglo-Irish War: Britain's Counterinsurgency," J.B.E. Hittle disputes whether this picture is actually the Cairo Gang. He writes that it "probably depicts a different group of British operatives. None of the men in the group photo closely resembles any of the DDSB officers assassinated on Bloody Sunday and whose pictures appeared in the December 4, 1920 pages of the Illustrated London News." He however acknowledges the possibility that they were under IRA attention, as the photo had been found among the papers of an IRA associate, and the numbers seemed to indicate references in some file. Frank Lynch (talk) 02:44, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

It is something of a contradiction that the Cairo Gang page specifically disputes the attribution of the photograph, and says that it is probably rather the subsequent Igoe Gang. Nick Cooper (talk) 09:27, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

The photograph should be removed from this article because it definitely does not depict members of the Cairo Gang. (92.11.205.199 (talk) 10:56, 24 December 2013 (UTC))

Photograph

I have removed the photograph because it was certainly not of the Cairo gang or the Igoe gang. There are many discussions about this on the Internet. As the photograph does not show anyone who was killed on Bloody Sunday in 1920 it should not be included in this article. There is no way that undercover agents would have ever posed for a photograph, and certainly not together. (92.11.202.165 (talk) 14:58, 27 December 2013 (UTC))

So let's wait the debate to end before we make any rash changes in the article, shall we? Coltsfan (talk) 17:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

This discussion on the real identity of the men in the photograph was very interesting: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=110794 (92.11.202.165 (talk) 18:15, 27 December 2013 (UTC))

So, it's really open for debate. We can't say who they are for sure, but the men on the pic are definitely irish collaborators, no doubt. The description of the photo already say's that they are not Cairo gang. This can be a long debate but for now lets keep the status quo of the page. Coltsfan (talk) 19:21, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

While the men photographed were certainly involved in trying to restore law and order in the south of Ireland, they were definitely not the Cairo Gang, and probably not the Igoe Gang either. There is no way undercover agents would have been photographed together, nor would they have wished to do so (due to the risk of assassination by the IRA). It seems pointless having the picture in the article when it does not directly relate to the subject matter. (92.11.205.91 (talk) 15:46, 28 December 2013 (UTC))

But it is related to the subject. It's the only pic we have of irish collaborators. They probably played a similar role to the Cairo Gang, in some way. It's the closest thing we got. It's related. Even if indirectly, it's related. It is still better than nothing. Coltsfan (talk) 17:35, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Categories

Two categories in this article I feel need quantified:

• This one recently added by User:Gob Lofa which i have reverted: Category:1920 crimes in the United Kingdom
• And this one Category:British war crimes

Whilst I would be inclined to agree that they were crimes, where is the evidence that they are considered crimes, especially "war" crimes? Without further justification I will be removing the war crimes category on the grounds of WP:POV/WP:OR. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:00, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Also this category Category:Massacres committed by the United Kingdom is so badly named. A more appropriate naming would be Category:Massacres committed by British forces seeing as the current one implies Government sanction. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:01, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Exactly what part of the events of the day do you regard as being in line with British law? Gob Lofa (talk) 10:01, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Your asking me for my personal opinion and speculation. I am asking you for reliable and verifiable third party sources to prove your claims. I have not seen mention anywhere in academic works that Bloody Sunday was a war crime or criminal act. Prove me wrong by supplying neutral, reliable and verifiable, 3rd party sources. If not cease and desist. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:36, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

It was you who introduced me to Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue; how would anyone contend that killing civil servants in their beds is legal? Gob Lofa (talk) 11:53, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

For something like a 'war crime' you need a clear third party source which supports it. If it is as obvious as you say then a third party source will have said it ----Snowded ^TALK 18:15, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue does not give carte blanche to insert your own personal opinion especially when it is something that it highly contentious and really does need sourcing. Mabuska ^(talk) 19:18, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

I didn't add war crimes, I added crimes. Is it really highly contentious to describe paramilitary assassination of civil servants as crime? Gob Lofa (talk) 22:00, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

FIND A SOURCE, otherwise please stop wasting our time ----Snowded ^TALK 22:08, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Surely Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue applies here; how could it not? So please stop wasting my time. Gob Lofa (talk) 22:27, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Sky is blue works when all other editors agree, this is not the case so no it does not apply. Your constant OR and synthesis wastes many a good editors time on Wikipedia. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:33, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

It's interesting you say that, because I seem to recall you arguing that it should be applied despite Snappy's insistent disagreement. What's changed? Can you give examples of this supposed OR and synthesis? Gob Lofa (talk) 10:53, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

This very discussion. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:50, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

If that's the best you can do, good luck. I asked you what's changed. Gob Lofa (talk) 04:30, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Bloody Sunday (1920). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150412100138/http://www.dublinheritage.ie/media/gaa_and_irish_revolution_text.html to http://www.dublinheritage.ie/media/gaa_and_irish_revolution_text.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:46, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Bloody Sunday (1920). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110522090948/http://www.dublincastle.ie/HistoryEducation/History/Chapter16TheEndofBritishRule/ to http://www.dublincastle.ie/HistoryEducation/History/Chapter16TheEndofBritishRule/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:04, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Aftermath

Is there any evidence that the killing of the 'Cairo Gang' 'devastated' British intelligence? Is there even any conclusive evidence that the Cairo Gang really existed? I don't doubt the republicans did think they did, but as I understand it the evidence that they were a coherent group is sparse, to say the least? Then there is the issue of the impact on public opinion. AIUI Irish public opinion was deeply shaken by the events and republicans were concerned that the public might, in effect, sue for peace. It was the events in the following week - at Kilmichael where the Volunteers successfully confronted and destroyed a column of Auxies - that ensured that did not happen because it restored morale in republican ranks. At the moment this part of the entry looks too accepting of post hoc republican views rather than a nuanced discussion of the real situation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:CE9:E200:D158:5CCD:54A6:CD6E (talk) 18:04, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

There was no 'Cairo Gang'. The name was invented at a later date by nationalist 'historians'. They were just random British officers and civilians whose names and addresses had been betrayed by IRA sympathisers. Khamba Tendal (talk) 21:13, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

See also

Why is Jallianwala Bagh massacre among the see also links? 31.50.156.109 (talk) 18:11, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Whelan and Moran

Elsewhere the IRA volunteers Patrick Moran (Irish republican) and Thomas Whelan are said to have been hanged for taking part, but didn't make the page, until now.78.17.11.74 (talk) 14:33, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

22 Lower Mount St – typos in the Times report?

It seems to me that there are typos in the quote from the Times report of 25 January 1921:

The prosecution opened with the start of the incident. Reported by the Times 25 January 1921 - "At about 9 am two men came to the front door of 22 Lower Mount Street, one of whom asked for Mr McMahon and the second asked for Mr “B”. The men dashed upstairs and one of the*THEM?*, identified as Mr. Conway, went to Mr. B.’s room. The other went to Mr. McMahon's door. More men with revolvers came up the stairs. The servant called out to warn Mr. McMahon and a companion occupying the same room, and she saw Teeling enter the room followed by others. He called out “Hands Up” and Mr. McMahon and a companion occupying the same room were covered with revolvers, two of they*THEM?* were identified as Potter and Teeling. Mr B. barricaded his door and it was said Conway fired shots through it. The servant who admitted the men identified the three prisoners as having been among them who carried out the attack. Both Potter and Conway claimed that they were *NOT?* at the scene of the crime, William Conway said he was at 9am Sunday Mass in Westmoreland Street."

I don’t have access to the Times report, so I have not amended the text of the article. Can anyone clarify? Sweet6970 (talk) 12:39, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Inappropriate link to Jallianwala Bagh massacre

I see that the question ‘Why is Jallianwala Bagh massacre among the see also links’ was raised on this Talk page on 13 April 2019. No reply was given.

I cannot see any parallels at all between the Jallianwala Bagh massacre and the events in Dublin on 21 November 1920. Please list the parallels which you consider exist. Sweet6970 (talk) 22:03, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Sweet6970.

The Amritsar Massacre and Croke Park Massacre occurred a few months apart, in similar places (an enclosed garden and an enclosed sports ground with limited shelter or routes of escape), involved similar parties (multiple unarmed civilians shot by British forces), and had similar repercussions (hardened opposition to British rule and encouraging some to a cause for independence).

The parallels between both events have been noted and discussed in multiple academic, news and other sources. These parallels were noted AT THE TIME. And in the 100 years since.

At the time, take for example, the headline in the Freeman's Journal (in the days after Bloody Sunday) which was titled "Amritzar Repeated in Dublin" (Freeman's Journal, Nov 1920).

Or, more recently, in Shereen Ilahi's "Imperial Violence and the Path to Independence: India, Ireland and the Crisis of Empire", among 20-plus pages of discussion on the similarities between both events (and their repercussions), it is noted that:

"Like the Jallianala Bagh, Croke Park was not really a park, but [had] A 20- to 30-foot-high railway wall on one side and a canal on another side bound the spectators. [..] Thus, Croke Park, like Jallianwala Bagh was a difficult place from which a large crowd could escape gunfire easily or quickly". (Ilahi, 2016, p140)

Or, in a continued focus on the ramifications of the Amritsar Massacre, such as an Asia Times piece titled "Amritsar massacre: Britain refuses to say sorry" (2019), it is noted by a modern commentator that

"Britain's colonial brutality at the time was not restricted to the subcontinent. The year after the massacre in India, Britain committed a similar atrocity against unarmed civilians in Ireland's capital. While there were far fewer casualties, it had a comparable impact on the national psyche, hardening opposition to British rule and inspiring many to take up arms for the cause of independence." (Asia Times, 2019)

See also the (granted unpublished thesis) "British reactions to Amritsar and Croke Park : Connections and comparisons". (Davies, 2017)

While I perhaps overlooked the previous anon question, I do not understand the "cannot see any parallels at all" argument. As there are multiple well-documented and discussed parallels. Including parallels in the place, the people, the period, and the outcomes. Many of which were noted at the time. And since.

While, personally, I think he significantly overlooked one other crucial difference (the number of deaths), I would close by noting that Frank Percy Crozier himself (officer commanding on the day of Bloody Sunday) stated that:

"There was only one difference [between Amritsar and Croke Park]: at Armritsar a general officer gave the order to massacre; at Croke Park the [foolish] police fired without orders" (Ilahi, 2016, p145)

I hope this helps to understand why this was added (by someone). And restored (by me). Guliolopez (talk) 23:58, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

To Guliolopez Thank you for this interesting information.

Personally, I still do not see that there are significant parallels between the Croke Park massacre and the Jallianwala Bagh massacre. For instance, at Croke Park it was Irish police officers killing Irish civilians, whereas at Amritsar it was ‘British’ (UK) troops (commanded by an Irishman) killing Indian civilians.

However, if the massacres were considered similar at the time, then this is historically important.

Since the IP and I have both been baffled by the connection made in the ‘See also’ section, my guess is that many readers will have been similarly puzzled. I would suggest that something is added to the article about the political comment at the time comparing the two events . Would you be willing to do this? Sweet6970 (talk) 10:32, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi.

RE: "I still do not see that there are significant parallels". If you've read about the events (including the sources above), and still don't see parallels, then I'm not sure what to do about that. Other than to suggest some more reading. If actually interested.

RE: "Irish police killing Irish civilians". If your point here is that the people doing the shooting were "Irish", then I would note that the Auxillary Division was not materially "Irish". It was made-up of (and led by) para-military officers and men from outside of Ireland. Pretty much expressly, exclusively and deliberately so. Its on-the-ground leaders were not Irish (like EL Mills, Major 1st DI, Adjutant, Auxiliary Division, who was at Croke Park and whose men were those primarily adjudged [by him and others] to have done the shooting). And its command leadership was not Irish (like Frank Percy Crozier, who resigned because he could not, in conscience, accept the victim-blaming stance taken by the authorities outside of Ireland). Otherwise, if your point here is that the people doing the shooting were a para-military force rather than a military force, then this seems a trivial distinction to draw.

RE: "[Other] readers will have been similarly puzzled. I would suggest that something is added to the article [instead of just a 'See Also']". Sure. I agree that sufficient coverage exists (at the time and since) to warrant more than a relatively context-less 'See Also' entry. I will take a look when I get a chance. About where best to add content in this area. Probably in the "aftermath" section. Perhaps in the coming week or so.

Bye. Guliolopez (talk) 11:20, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I look forward to seeing the addition to the article. Regards Sweet6970 (talk) 12:49, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi. As requested, I moved the link/association with the Amritsar massacre from the "see also" section. To the "aftermath" section. With reference to the relevant sources. Of course. I trust this addresses the concern. Cheers. Guliolopez (talk) 02:02, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks Sweet6970 (talk) 11:05, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

What letter am I thinking of?

Back in 27 March 2018 someone added some text. The same incomplete text can be found today - search for "and one of the,". I'm wondering what change could have been made in the last two years to make the sentence read better. Shenme (talk) 01:46, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Since it's quoting a newspaper, it's not a matter of what change could make the sentence read better but what word is apparently missing that was in the newspaper's original report. I'm of the opinion that the section should be completely rewritten removing the lengthy quotes, which would render the problem moot. FDW777 (talk) 08:28, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Although it might not be a missing word, it could have said "one of them". But equally it could be a word such as "gunmen" or "assassins" that was missed out. FDW777 (talk) 08:30, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 30 July 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Calidum 02:20, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

---

Bloody Sunday (1920) → Croke Park massacre – It seems to me that in the 21st century "Bloody Sunday" in reference to Ireland usually means Bloody Sunday (1972). I'm not certain that modern sources consistently lean toward "Croke Park massacre" in particular, but I doubt they prefer "Blood Sunday" any longer, or have for several decades. So, I'm open to whatever title seems best, I just don't think it's Bloody Sunday (1920). At a bare minimum, the lead should have boldfaced alternative names including the one proposed here and whatever else is found in multiple sources.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:24, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose Bloody Sunday refers to the whole day, half of which is the IRA's assassination of many British intelligence agents. The Croke Park massacre was the reaction to that. FDW777 (talk) 09:36, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose The proposer has apparently not read the article. 15 British intelligence agents were not killed in Croke Park, nor were the two senior IRA men and one uninvolved person who were shot in Dublin Castle. "Bloody Sunday" was still in use internationally in 2007 when the England rugby team played at Croke Park: Guardian, New York Times, Telegraph; and in 2011 when Queen Elizabeth visited Dublin: BBC, Irish Times, Telegraph Belfast Telegraph, NYT. It is the title of chapter 8 of Tim Pat Coogan's 2016 book The Twelve Apostles, and is used throughout a 2020 book, The Bloodied Field. Simply saying "I doubt the sources prefer Bloody Sunday, or have for several decades" is not a substitute for a basic search. Scolaire (talk) 10:52, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. There can be two meanings of the same term. That's why we have DAB policies. That the 1972 event might (to some people) come to mind first, doesn't mean that we need to rename all/other possible uses of the term. As per Scolaire's note, there is lots of evidence that the term continues to be applied to the events of 1920. So there is nothing "wrong" with the current title. There are however issues with the proposed title. In that it (a) doesn't cover the entire topic and (b) isn't a common name for the full scope of the topic. Otherwise I'm not sure of the appropriateness of bolding "Croke Park massacre" in the lead. As it might imply a narrower scope. If there is a concern with the fact that Croke Park massacre is a redirect, and that there could WP:EASTEREGG issues with someone following that redirect, then that could be addressed by updating the redirect so that it links to the relevant section. In short, I can't support the proposal. As there are no issues with the current title (in terms of DAB and COMMONNAME norms). And there are potential issues with the proposed title (in terms of COMMONNAME and TOPIC). Guliolopez (talk) 12:01, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bias

I came to this article to try to learn some details of this incident and found a biased piece. I note from the talk pages that some discussion of this has been started previously.

My main issue is around the bias of the language used for witnesses.

The third paragraph of the lead starts “Later that afternoon … “ Clearly there are two stories here about the first shots but this paragraph puts one forth as the valid story. The sentence starting “Without warning, the police fired …“ is clearly biased. The differences in treatment of the witnesses are also biased “The police claimed …”, “All other witnesses said … “

The section headed ‘Afternoon: Croke Park Massacre’ continues this bias, notably, in the second and third paragraphs. I think a good attempt has been made to present the differing stories but the language it is couched in creates a bias. “The police later claimed … “, “civilian witnesses all agreed …”, “Another DMP constable testified …”

My second issue is with the terms used to describe the killings. The IRA killings are described as “shot dead” or “killed” all in a passive voice. The Croke Park killings are described as “shot to death”

The section ‘Evening: Dublin Castle killings’ is a good section showing the treatment of the men. This stands in contrast to the earlier part about the captured RIC men which is summed up as: “They were captured by an IRA team on Mount Street Bridge and marched to a house on Northumberland Road where they were interrogated and shot dead” I doubt there is anywhere near as much evidence as to their final hours but ‘interrogated and shot dead’ feels very much like a euphemism given the paragraphs later on.

Finally, this sentence does not belong in an encyclopaedia. “Despite the general unease in Dublin as news broke of the assassinations, a war-weary populace continued with life.” It is an emotive sentence used by a writer to create an atmosphere.

146.90.71.194 (talk) 10:37, 1 October 2021 (UTC)