Talk:Boy soprano

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Boy Soprano. My grandson is interested in singing. What age would tuition normally start, Liam O'Leary, olearyls@eircom.net.

• The above unsigned comment was added by 194.125.161.16 in December 2004.

As the article (now) says, training often begins around 7 or 8 years of age. I joined the Chapel Choir at Newington College, a Uniting Church school around age 10. ralmin 02:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The list of "popular" boy choirs seems rather arbitrary, as it certainly does not include some of the major superb English choirs that are about as popular as can be. Should this list be greatly expanded or eliminated?

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Are there ANY references for the explanation surrounding Bach and the "hiatus" between puberty and change of voice. Sounds a bit odd to me... <eg> --80.136.185.6 04:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Boys' Choirs

Wikipedia currently lacks an article on boys' choirs - whch are NOT (as this article points out!) the same as the boy sopranos (and boy altos, not to mention - in many cases - the newly minted tenors and basses) who sing in them. Since my son joined the Zürich Sängerknaben I've been fascinated with this tradition and its history, and I'll try to put something together - if only a stub. It's high time Wikipedia had something! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.162.103.253 (talk) 07:12, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you should look here first. —Wahoofive (talk) 16:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Falsetto

Regarding

Occasionally boys whose voices have changed can continue to sing in the soprano range for a period of time.

In fact all boys can continue to sing in their upper range their entire lives, a technique called falsetto. While few men cultivate the skill, at least in America, it's rare for it to be impossible. True, a falsettist's top range is not as high as a boy soprano, but this sentence is woefully inadequate. —Wahoofive (talk) 04:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Good point, although it would be more accurate to say a falsettist's top range is usually not as high as a boy soprano: some men can reach extremely high notes in falsetto. Contains Mild Peril (talk) 00:08, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

this is an interesting one. I was a boy soprano and could sing up to E6 and go down to B3. I was one of those people who's voices broke in a week and i had a wobbly voice. I could for a month or so throw my voice into my childhood register and sing soprano but it was cut down by about a fifth. Then when i was unable to do that I was left with a Bass/bass-baritone voice with my highest note being A4. It seems i have the lower half of my childhood range as my 'falsetto'. This is only anecdotal, i know, but from what i remember of the tone changes that occurred over my childhood voice, i find my head voice starts to kick in around that A/B3 area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.176.89.230 (talk) 11:23, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Treble/Boy soprano

Excuse me, the term "Boy Soprano" does not exist. It is slang for the correct word: Treble. You say treble is british english, I'm afraid to say that the terms boy and soprano contradict each other anyway. A soprano is and remains to be a female singer with a high range. "Soprano" does not mean "range". This is why I'm changing the title of this article to treble.--Brainsurgeonrocketscientist 05:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I love Wikipedia. Every time I get depressed I can come on and get a laugh out a comment like that. —Wahoofive (talk) 15:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Paul Chapman

I wonder if anyone knows of Paul Chapman, who performed a treble solo on Michael Nyman's "Miserere", which was composed for the soundtrack to the film entitled "The Cook, The Thief, His Wife, and Her Lover". Would it be appropriate to mention him in this article at all? Oberschlesien 14:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Cathedral Choristers

It may be worthwhile, perhaps on a new related page, to discuss cathdral choristers and some of the traditions and roles, such as auditions, years of service, religious duties, ranks such as Head Boy (Head Chorister), choristers of the year, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.148.80.10 (talk) 21:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

boy alto

I notice there is no page for a "boy alto" although such a voice type is referred to in various works, sch as Menotti's Chip and His Dog, an opera intended to be played by children. Is the definition of such a voice even more nebulous?--19:15, 30 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scottandrewhutchins (talk • contribs)

Photographs

This article would be much improved by the addition of some photographs.Das Baz 16:58, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

trebles singing christian liturgy in pre-christian times

someone might want to take a look at this claim. most christian liturgy dates from the christian era, don't sure how much christian liturgy is known to be pre-christian...70.26.6.134 (talk) 21:59, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Joe

Article Editing, cleanup and thoughts

I am very near tempted to remove the sentence: "The fact that boys are no longer trained to sing in the head voice is a significant factor in the demise of the older boy soprano." This is, in fact, not sourced from any document, and I personally train my boys to sing in their upper registers well into the age of 15-16. This sentence doesn't help the article.

Secondly, if this article is going to be linked with the WikiProject-Opera, I believe all content relating to Trebles and liturgical functions should be removed and a second more liturgically friendly page about Trebles created. I'm happy to create the page, but I wanted to check on discussion first. I've left the article intact, but sources are readily available for citing. Perhaps also, elements from Choirboy should also be combined. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dragoonboy (talk • contribs) 01:07, 17 December 2014‎

I suggest the oppoite: any aspects of boy soprano or trebles lacking in this articles should be added here; a banner on an article's talk page doesn't confer exclusivity. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 23:03, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I read the previous discussion under the project-opera talk page and can more or less agree about the banner. I'll see if I can add some information to this page. I am now aware that Treble redirects here, I believe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dragoonboy (talk • contribs) 00:06, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 7 February 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Number 57 15:28, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

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Boy soprano → Treble (voice) – I believe that this is the more common term for a "boy soprano"; certainly it is in the UK (in fact I had not come across the term "boy soprano" before without the explanation that a treble was a young male soprano). Google shows 54000 results for "treble voice" [1] but only 10000 for "boy soprano voice" [2] so I suggest that this is moved. --Relisted. Number 57 14:48, 18 February 2015 (UTC) JZCL 20:58, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Update: "The soprano part is sung by women or girls, or by boys with unbroken voices: traditionally church and cathedral choirs used boys' voices, though they are more often called trebles rather than sopranos." - Eric Taylor: The AB guide to music theory part II (revised 2011) section 14/1 p. 106. ISBN 978-1-85472-447-2

Comment: the Google result is not useful, because publishers routinely identify sheet music as being for "treble voice(s)" so as to appeal to both genders, and that likely represents a large chunk of the hits. —Wahoofive (talk) 05:59, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. Firstly, you are comparing the wrong Google searches; you need to compare ""boy soprano" [3] (301,000) with "treble voice" [4] (58,900). "Boy soprano" is more clearly descriptive and more easily understood. "Treble" refers to instruments and to the treble cleft; thus it's too confusing to use only the British term (even with the added word "voice") as the article title. Lastly, there is already a redirect in place, for anyone searching for the British usage. This move request does however point up the fact that the whole article needs vast improvement, cleanup, and citing. Softlavender (talk) 06:39, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

I see what you are saying about the unhelpfulness of the Google search. However, another point to note is that the article actually uses the term "treble" more than the term "boy soprano" (although it is close to 50:50). The other thing is that there is in fact a section on Girl trebles, which just makes the article title seem even more confusing. Compare to the simple English Wikipedia's article whose name is perhaps more accessible. I believe that treble (voice type), treble (singing) or perhaps even treble (vocal range) (though admittedly the last one is slightly ambiguous since the article is not primarily about the range) are more appropriate titles than Boy soprano, especially considering the fact there is a girl treble section. JZCL 08:51, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

The girl treble "section" is not a section, it's a single uncited sentence (a violation of MOS). Boy sopranos are boys because of the unique range, timbre, power, and character of the young male falsetto voice, which has little relation to the young female voice. Softlavender (talk) 08:20, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Be it a single, uncited sentence or not, it is still a section. The term seems to exist; see this for instance p. 21. The section is simply confusing with the article title. JZCL 15:39, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support - this article is too brief. I looked at the corresponding articles in other languages and a few NOT titled "boy soprano" are much more thorough, discussing either children's voices or treble voice overall, particularly the Italian one (it:Voci bianche). If there isn't enough sufficient information only on boy sopranos, it should be expanded to all treble voices. Wikimandia (talk) 18:25, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Not true, the foreign language articles are overwhelmingly called and about boy sopranos. What on earth do you mean do you mean by "all treble voices"? You don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about. Softlavender (talk) 08:16, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I think that what Wikimandia is perhaps trying to say is that this article should be expanded to information about trebles in musical genres other than in the Classical style, in which they may be more likely called trebles. Although there is a (terrible) list which mentions some non-classical boy sopranos, there is no information elsewhere about the role in non-classical music, and is perhaps suggesting that the page be renamed so that more genres in which the treble is used can be encompassed. And I think that personal remarks should be avoided whenever possible; saying someone "clearly doesn't know what [they're] talking about" can hardly be the most collaborative way to speak. JZCL 15:33, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

What I wrote was pretty clear: "a few NOT titled 'boy soprano'..." would indicate that most of the non-English articles are called boy soprano, no? Apparently Softlavender clearly doesn't know what he/she is talking about. JZCL has a clue. Wikimandia (talk) 03:55, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. I'm a bit mystified by the suggestion (here and in the article itself) that "boy soprano" isn't used in the UK. I've lived here all my life and I've heard it many, many times. It used to be the common name for a choirboy soloist with a particularly high, clear voice. Maybe less so now. It wasn't, however, used for any old treble. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:54, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

• Comment The soprano article states that "The term "boy soprano" is often used as well, but this is just a colloquialism and not the correct term." Either that article needs to be changed on the matter, or this one does. JZCL 21:18, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. Boy soprano is a good topic with an unambiguous title, while the proposed title is confusing and possibly ambiguous. Treble is heavily dependent for its meaning on context, as the need to disambiguate shows. Depending on varieties of English there may be a case for moving to treble voice, but that seems to me to be a wider topic including for example castrato voices. It's currently a redlink and we should fix that, either way. Andrewa (talk) 16:34, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose as explained by Andrewa. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:00, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Range

Apparently A3-F5 - any sources to back this up? The only thing I could find was this which seemed to be suggesting that they rarely go into anything below E4 (because they do not make use of chest voice) and use the upper part of the soprano register more than anything else. I am, however, currently very dissatisfied with the range section, and will improve it when I find out what the vocal range is. JZCL 16:09, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

How tall are trees? Voices aren't like instruments which have some solid cutoff point: e.g. a violin can play down to G3 and then physically can't go any lower. Voices (whether boys or girls, adults or children) gradually fade out and become inaudible at the bottom; the lowest notes composers choose to use is a matter of judgment, not science. Such ranges are always suggestions.

Similar considerations arise at the top. Exceptionally well-trained boys can sing above high C, almost as high as a woman coloratura soprano, but composers rarely write up there because few boys are that highly skilled.

And boys are perfectly capable of singing in chest voice, although many conductors discourage it. Indeed, the article you linked to refers to several schools of thought in boys' vocal training, with corresponding differences in range; only one school mentioned doesn't allow chest voice and so has a higher low end.

Really, it might be best not to open this can of worms. —Wahoofive (talk) 21:17, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I understand completely what you are saying, but what I am asking is whether there is a tessitura for these boys which is often thought of. For instance, the soprano range is often thought of as C4 to A5, though many can sing lower and higher, and some repertoire, as you said, can call for C6 or even higher. So what I am wondering is: is there a clear range which many people deem the treble to have? Because currently this article lists both C4-A5 and A3-F5 as common ranges for the treble, and I am wondering if one of these is considered more "standard" than the others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JZCL (talk • contribs) 22:07, 9 February 2015‎ (UTC)

I guess it depends whether you mean music written for modern children's choirs (which usually have pretty limited ranges to maximize sales) or music written historically for the soprano parts in church music (e.g. Bach), which would have been sung by boys. The latter would go up to A routinely (though Bach's A might have been a good half step lower than our A) and up to B in spots; the Allegri Miserere goes up to high C. I'd guess that difference is the source of the discrepancy you mention. —Wahoofive (talk) 07:25, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, so would a summary such as:

Historically, music written for the treble part would have had a similar range to that of a female soprano (roughly C4-A5), since the treble would have sung the soprano part in Church choirs and other related contexts. However, in its more contemporary form, trebles are not always called upon for quite such a demanding range.

be OK to add to the range section in your opinion? JZCL 20:46, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

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Bach's motets

• I read somewhere that some of Bach's motets cannot be sung nowadays as Bach intended, because their music is so complicated that nowadays by the time that a choirboy is intelligent enough to understand the music, his voice has broken. Is there a reference to this? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:55, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

What Bach "intended" is a matter of substantial dispute, but if you mean it can't be sung today with boys on the top part, a little Googling would easily dispel that idea. —Wahoofive (talk) 20:35, 23 April 2018 (UTC)