Talk:Education in England

updating the introduction

While the introduction is (to be knowledge) factualy acurate, I feel it doesn't quite get the right balance of the key points to mention in painting a picture of english eductation. I would mention that schooling is mostly seperated in to primarly and secondarly much earlier on. I suggest mentioning the majority of schools are state funded (if not state owned) and non-selective. Currently these are mentioned early on, but no indication of whether something is the norm or a niche. For example ' State-funded schools may be selective grammar schools or non-selective comprehensive schools' - this could give impression that Grammar schools make up a large percentage of schools in the UK when they only exist in certain areas, it also seems to presume all schools are secondary.

Again, the next sentence starts 'Comprehensive schools are further subdivided by funding into free schools, other academies, any remaining Local Authority schools and others.' Would it more correct to say 'non-selective schools' as this includes primaries, and by putting free schools at the start of the list implies it is the most common option.

I also suggest that the intro does not need so much detail no ey stages, which could be included further down. with the lack of mention of school groupings, someone new to the english system may presume these refer to types of school.

If people think these are sensible ideas I will try and make some edits in the near future. As this concerned the intro, i wanted to make sure i raised it here first.

Foxdown (talk) 16:57, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind offer. I have had a look at two other EU countries and they suffer from the same problems. All of them appear to have data added try to unify the style internationally and in none of them has it worked. If this introduction is intended to be a lead it fails- see section on content of lead in WP:MOS. If this intended to be an introduction section it fails- being totally without references. These meta articles- attempting to describe a whole topic are difficult to write, and we need to pay attention to the referencing. The reference must be more than verification that the term exists, but must also confirm the content of the paragraph. The sentence- the school has been sponsored by Joe Bloggs, needs a reference that confirms the sponsorship, not one that says 'Joe Bloggs is a common name in Thetford'.

I'd say, go ahead and work up your changes, and then step back and allow other editor to change it giving their reasons and refs in the edit summary. Leave us detailed edit summaries and inline comments when a difficult decision needed to be made. I would say a lot of the material can be directed below then write a new summary to replace it. I'd stamp hard on adverb/adjectives 'mostly' 'mainly' and replace them with facts (percentages). Good luck ClemRutter (talk) 22:10, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Brexit, EU fees

In this article : "Tuition fees for first degrees in public universities are £9,250 per academic year for English, Welsh and European Union students.[13]"

Well, since brexit, students from EU will pay the full price like overseas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:a03f:a31e:8a00:9969:9911:aec9:10af (talk) 07:48, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 September 2021

Comments from blocked sockpuppet user

KayteeSeemthDWs (talk) 15:20, 17 September 2021 (UTC)  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:32, 17 September 2021 (UTC) Primary and secondary rewrite This page is sound. But there are two sections that need urgent attention. The primary & secondary sections do not cite sources. There are invalid information. For example, they do not cover the right subject names well that England uses in its National Curriculum. I'm under the impression an outside person wrote them, which isn't good because it doesn't match the features of education in England. Some of the text is challenging to source in both texts. This is an important page for oversea students who are setting up life in England for school or sixth form college. I suggest a radical rewrite. Another small issue is the school subjects table. '2014' at the top of the table should be removed and is unnecessary. The exact month & day for the publication and use of the National Curriculum is correctly put right above it. This looks untidy. KayteeSeemthDWs (talk) 15:20, 17 September 2021 (UTC) Feel free to provide the rewrite you'd like to see implemented. Edit requests are to request a specific edit to be made, not to request someone edit an article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScottishFinnishRadish (talk • contribs) This is patently the latest sock of the blocked editor that has waged a sustained campaign at this article, per the edit history. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:11, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 September 2021

Comments from blocked sockpuppet accounts

This is an edit request to be made for the highly incorrect and not cited Primary and Secondary sections.  Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:51, 27 September 2021 (UTC) I will leave this up for editors to agree and disagree. Primary Primary education, normally starting at age five, is a two year infant stage (Key Stage 1) and a five year junior stage (Key Stage 3). The six years from Year 1 to Year 6 provide a foundation in English, Mathematics and Science. Other subjects include art and design, history, geography, computing, design and technology, religious education (RE), modern and ancient foreign languages, music and physical education. National Curriculum assessment in English, Mathematics and Science are taken place at the end of Year 2 and Year 6. Individual teacher assessment is used for foundation subjects like art and design, history, geography, computing and design and technology. Secondary Secondary education, normally starting at age eleven, is a three year lower stage (Key Stage 3) and a two year higher stage (Key Stage 4). Key Stage 4 incorporate GCSEs, and other examinations, in maintained schools in England normally known as Year 10 and Year 11, when pupils are aged between 14 and 16 by August 31st. The five years from Year 7 to Year 11 provide a broader set of subjects, including the core English, Mathematics and Science. Other subjects include citizenship, art and design, history, geography, computing, design and technology, religious education (RE), modern foreign languages, music and physical education. Schools must also offer an optional programme of study from the arts, design and technology, humanities, and modern foreign languages. The following subjects can be studied in-death for GCSEs: English English Literature English Language Sciences and Mathematics: Biology Chemistry Physics Astronomy Computer Science Geology Psychology Statistics Sociology Humanities and Social Sciences: History Geography Ancient History Citizenship Studies Classical Civilisation Religious Studies Business and Enterprise: Business Studies Economics Design and Technology: Design and Technology Electronics Engineering Food Preparation & Nutrition Arts: Art and Design Dance Drama Film Studies Media Studies Music Photography Graphics Languages: Modern languages: Arabic, Bengali, Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese (Mandarin), French, German, Modern Greek, Gujarati, Modern Hebrew, Irish (only in Northern Ireland), Italian, Japanese, Panjabi, Persian, Polish, Portuguese, Russian, Spanish, Turkish, Urdu Ancient languages: Classical Greek, Biblical Hebrew, Latin Other: Physical Education Liontheslayer2 (talk) 01:37, 27 September 2021 (UTC) Agree with this; the secondary school and primary school sections are not the right information. Going up the talk page this has already been noted yet no changes have been made to improve. I'd keep the information on learning - not the school infrastructure. Carbia232 (talk) 14:29, 27 September 2021 (UTC) References

Errors

Comment from blocked sockpuppet account

I think Education in England needs a clear up, and so does this talk page, which has become overcrowded with suggestions to improve, yet no changes have been made by extended confirmed users. May a extended confirmed user please take the time and effort to have a look through this talk page and change what people are suggesting? Thank you. Carbia232 (talk) 14:32, 27 September 2021 (UTC) I've taken a look through the talk page and started a sockpuppet investigation at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lam312321321 regarding you and Liontheslayer2. --Lord Belbury (talk) 15:09, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Character Education

Can we add something about character education? It's now part of the Ofsted Inspection Handbook and a requirement for a school to be graded either good or outstanding? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7C:3172:8200:DC01:11BA:ACC0:FF03 (talk) 21:10, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Lam312321321 this IP may be the same block evader as the previous three talk page sections.) --Lord Belbury (talk) 21:29, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

SPI was closed a week later as stale/likely. --Lord Belbury (talk) 09:57, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Several HUGE errors

• "Students may then continue their secondary studies for a further two years (sixth form)" - most students DO NOT study in 6th form AFTER the age of 17/18, as the article claims quite bizarrely, but most commonly between the ages of 16 and 18.

• "public education and state schools" - highly misleading. First, 'public education' can be confused with public schools; the usual term is 'state education'. Second, this is the SAME as 'state schools', so the 'and' is meaningless.

Where is the reference to academies?!

• "The legislation places no requirement for parents who choose not to send their children to school to follow the National Curriculum, or to give formal lessons, or to follow school hours and terms, and parents do not need to be qualified teachers".

Is this correct? Seems to contradict the statement before: ... parents are responsible for the education of their children, "by regular attendance at school or otherwise" and no proof needed?

Janosabel (talk) 21:51, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Post 16 stuff

There is a section inserted about 'Post 16 paths'- it really repeats a lot of the prior dialog. I expanded just a tad - but seems in an odd place in this article - I took a bold step and tried to make it seem less repetitive - BeingObjective (talk) 18:11, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I still think this 16/18 dialog is creating confusion based on input from folks who are not Brits - likely the bigger audiences if you ponder the matter.

Dr. BeingObjective (talk) 16:03, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I think your text is generally an improvement. I disagree about 'skills training' – this is one option, but so is the academic pathway (A levels) either within the traditional school environment or in an FE college. Robminchin (talk) 17:42, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Might be a personal thing for me - I originate from a time when 16 was a common age for kids to leave UK schools - likely mid 1970s. I am certain there are far more options to develop 'skills'/continue education until 18 now. I know you have some significant expertise in this area - so I am happy with your judgments - but the likely audience for this content includes many for the anglosphere - IMHO - so perhaps being direct and clear is not a bad idea. Cheers BeingObjective (talk) 18:01, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Something truly pedantic - could 'maths' be changed to 'mathematics'? Again, a personal hang up - and it is uniquely British - contraction or not, to Americans it reads/sounds curious.

Or is 'maths' actually used in that manner?

Rather like 'footy' tbh.

BeingObjective (talk) 18:18, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Normally I'd agree on "maths", both on the grounds of commonality and it being a contraction. However, "maths schools" is the name used by the government in its documents, and also as a result in the title of the Wikipedia article. In this particular case, it seems to be the actual name of the type of school. Just to confuse the issue further, many maths schools use a name of the form 'X Mathematics School', but "mathematics school" seems to only ever be used in the names of individual schools not to refer to the type of school. Possibly "maths school" could be given as "maths school" to make it clear that it's a term of art, but that would probably require using italics for all the school types that are terms of art for consistency, which is going to end up with italics all over the place, so it's probably worth leaving it as it is on balance. Robminchin (talk) 18:36, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Ah - understood - had no sense of the usage. BeingObjective (talk) 21:30, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Please do not modify the para.

With respect to the many folks who have constructively edited this article - I think it is fairly decent at this point. I do have one 'pet paragraph' - that I would ask be preserved - other editors may have seen my comments - note, this is not my work - it just is a nice clear, concise statement.

Legally compulsory education

Full-time education is compulsory for all children aged 5 to 18, students must stay in a traditional school setting until the age of 16. After this age they are still legally required to receive further education (which may be academic or technical) until the age of 18, but this does not have to be in a traditional school environment and numerous vocational options are legally acceptable and available. BeingObjective (talk) 00:53, 16 November 2023 (UTC)