Talk:Eliminator (album)

The Car

Isn't Eliminator the name of the car pictured?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.172.165 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 21 October 2006

Yes. The car probably ought to have its own article at some point, à la Batmobile or The General Lee. All I know about it is that it's currently on display at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Dyfsunctional 16:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Track listing / Credits / Personnel

With regards to the section about Linden Hudson co-writing material and shouldn't "All songs written by Billy Gibbons, Dusty Hill and Frank Beard." be changed to "All songs written by Billy Gibbons, Dusty Hill and Frank Beard (except where noted)." and adding Hudson to the credits of Thug and Under Pressure + the Personnel list? Or: if the claims are false, shouldn't the section about the engineers contributions be removed or rewritten? / Mabande (talk) 10:45, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

The section about Hudson's contributions has references, but I haven't verified any of them. It seems suspicious, but these books are published by big publishing houses that I believe would qualify as reliable sources. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 20:15, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

COMMENT ON THIS COMMENT: The only thing people should find suspicious is that the band claimed full writer-ship of this album. Just remember the settlement they gave Mr Hudson for having a copyright on one of the tunes. Also, why talk about verification when you could actually do that?

If you find the Hudson info to be suspicious, shouldn't you actually verify those references (as you yourself suggested)? They are from David Blayney (stage manager for ZZ Top for 15 years), from Deborah Frost (Rolling Stone), from David Sinclair (London Times). The books written by these folks are available on Amazon or most other places. These authors are respected. Are the Wikipedia rules about references for real, or not? What is the confusion? Or is this Wikipedia article about Eliminator just for "fluff" purposes? Is Wikipedia about real information? Or is it not about information? If not, then what is Wikipedia? Is someone worried about truth and real information? (signed- Texasman444)

SO, here's more for you to chew on: LICKLIBRARY DOT COM (2013 Billy Gibbons interview) ZZ TOP'S BILLY GIBBONS FINALLY ADMITTED: “the Eliminator sessions in 1983 were guided largely by another one of our associates, Linden Hudson, a gifted engineer, during the development of those compositions.” There's more, Gibbons admitted even more about Mr Hudson in a MusicRadar Dot Com interview (also 2013). These should no longer be questioned. And, it's interesting that Wiki states Frank Beard on Drums and Dusty Hill on Bass for the Eliminator Album (not true, they did not play). Wikipedia is a blog of BS, nothing should be believed from Wikipedia. This talk page has much more truth than the Article page does (any day). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.232.71.77 (talk) 17:29, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

MORE: These controversial bits of true info were revealed by the late David Blayney in his book in the 80's (Sharp Dressed Men) which was released on Hyperion books (Disney). David was their Stage Manager and their original roadie. Blayney tells the story of Eliminator. He knows all their stories (once again, Road Manager and original roadie). When truth comes to Wiki, the Eliminator writing credits will include Linden Hudson, and the Eliminator bass and drum credits will not include Dusty and Frank. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2c7:4480:49e0:65a8:c9b2:b53d:1112 (talk • contribs)

I'm not surprised Linden himself would turn up on this talk page. :) I approve of wanting to set the record straight but of course Wikipedia has its own set of guidelines, and as long as it's not outright stated by what WP accepts as a "reliable source", it's a bit problematic to add things even if they are actually true (yeah, that sounds odd).

However, I would really like to see things properly credited. And while Terry Manning is already credited with synths and drum machine, his many comments show that he did more on the final recording, including bass (both on a real bass, alongside Billy, and on a Moog) and rhythm guitar, and backing vocals together with Jimi Jamison...Jules TH 16 (talk) 20:34, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

(Sir, in answer, Terry is a great engineer, but he chooses to not go on the record and he's not quoted in a so called proper source about the Memphis rebuild, I want to see that too, im very interested, but he's not going speak for ZZ, he's just not. True he did a lot, but I did things too, so actually what are you really trying to say?)

This review, who the heck wrote or referred this BS: "Reviewing the album in Record, Samuel Graham expressed mixed feelings about its adherence to the familiar ZZ Top motifs. While he found it a relief that the band had not veered down a commercially driven route, he remarked that the album's failure to stretch out from established stylistics made it over-familiar and lacking in variety compared to the band's last three albums. He praised the tracks "Gimme All Your Lovin'", "Legs", "Thug", and "I Need You Tonight", but concluded "we've heard most of this before. Eliminator, then, will probably satisfy ZZ Top's boogie chillin' faithful. But it's a lateral move at a time when Gibbons, Hill and Beard could be stepping forward." (end quote): this poor review makes no sense at all. If it's over familiar and lacking in variety then why did Eliminator sell more albums than all their other albums combined? Do you realise it makes no sense? Who pick this review, it is ridiculous. Its a joke. ZZ Top should have gotten in touch with Samuel Graham and run this by him before they released that flawed album (the one that sold 20 million copies, yes it's the album that sold as many units as all their other albums combined, but I guess it was flawed). Get a job.

++ I got chewed out by God know who the last time I said something here. So I'll keep it simple. Since my name is Linden Hudson and there are writings about me in the article, such as: "For Eliminator, Gibbons purchased a Fairlight synthesizer and experimented with it with Hudson in the home studio of drummer Frank Beard." (end quote), then all I can say is "there was NO fairlight". Do you feel me? (I was there)

There are probably some good venues online to get more people to hear your story - maybe try contacting some popular YouTubers or podcasters who cover classic albums and do an interview. I'm sure there'd be interest. But Wikipedia isn't the place for it, sorry. Popcornfud (talk) 15:46, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

(sir, why don't you go find some venues online to hear your story, what actually certifies you to speak on this at all?)

++ Here's what you just said: "But Wikipedia isn't the place for "the truth", sorry." Im in the story, you're somehow defending fantasy. I did not brag or anything, I corrected one fact. You guys are amateurs correct? You are not a real writer are you? Real writers actually interview people who are involved with a story and ask questions. So who do you call for your professional interviews? why don't you answer that? I don't need to go to Youtube, for instance, I just spent 2 months being interviews by a TV network documentary in UK. There were those interviews for 6 books as well. Im trying to tell truths about a story that apparently you have real facts on (you say). Just tell us who you are and why you're in charge, hows that? Can you do it? Or are you the SECRET writer of truths? In real publication it seems that you get to know who wrote the stuff. So just stand by your fluff so we can say "hey, maybe its truth". ++ R you an authoritative figure in Wiki? Ypu seem to act like you carry some weight with you advice. Just asking, this Wiki thing is for everybody, who are you? ++ Come on man. If you carry weight then, because this is a public forum, you must tell me why you're the boss of me, and why you defend ridiculous fantasies. ++ You acted like a hall monitor when you told me for the second time "Wikipedia is not the place for this". Says you? Give me some wisdom sir? ++ Sir, do you realize that the VERY sentence I was correcting for you had my name in it. I told you its a false sentence, no skin on or off my nose, but the Fairlight thing just WAS NOT true. I can tell you what kind of synths we played with, but not a fairlight (your cell phone is 1000 times more powerful than an old fairlight), Its not cool, not impressive, not true. BS is useless to the world sir. Stop being a weird hall monitor little ninny.

++ Sir, Im talking politely to you. You need to educate me as to why I must follow your instructions on this people's forum. You cant talk right now? Must be busy writing (making things up that is)

++ And while we're talking (yes, on the TALK page, I assume that's where we get to talk?) let's discuss getting a real critical review at the bottom instead of that rank and immature mess that's there now. Sir, it's just bad. At least try to make sense, it's like a junior high school paper. Who are you? Don't come back at me unless you can speak like an adult and also, know some of this, do ya know wut ah MEEN?

+++ Sir, I tried to find a writer everywhere on the internet, but Samuel Graham? You quoted a ghost in the critical reception part of the article which makes sense when you try to read that mess. Stop putting ridiculous slop in Wikipedia. Some kids read that crap and believe it (I hope adults would be more careful). Let's talk. This critical reception is un-readable, and it's slop. I repeat, let's find out why there are amateurs writing horrible BS and slop on the Eliminator article. Someone please direct me to a higher up mature and educated authority so I can help the Wiki world with some truth and not legend-speak. Come out of hiding and let's talk about truth vs legend vs telling me that you can actually tell lies that include me (Linden Hudson). What is your problem? If you don't trust the people in the article and you have to make stuff up, you need to tell me what's going on in your head, I will listen to what you say. But, the article is full of BS.

++ Ok big fella, but I just repeat (and I don't believe it's a big deal, but it's not true) there was NO fairlight in this reality whatsoever, and you said LINDEN HUDSON (that's ME) was involved with the fairlight while working with Billy, I don't know, maybe I was on acid and forgot (no I don't think so). We had synths (I even owned a couple) but we didn't throw away any manuals (it's just a cute thing to say, right?) But there WERE drum machines involved with pre-pro, but Terry wont talk about after-pro drum stuff. He gave it away in some blog posts but it hit the mainstream quick and it seems that he's backtracking because in reality ZZ Top is trying to cover a lot of things about the album, but everybody actually knows, its like parallel universes. But, this wiki article is not a band promo, this is not a cover up thing right? its supposed to be a source of knowledge for grown up adults right?. Im not afraid to say that drum machines were USED in the final make of the album (synth bass too). But Dave Blayney spilled those beans more that THIRTY FIVE YEARS AGO. Terry probably knows he's in a precarious situation (it's ok Terry, I know you're the greatest, but you're in a precarious situation it seems). It's just amazing how there remain two stories: official ZZ stories, real stories, and then Billy tells both stories (so strange). ++ There are some flakey people re-writing this ZZ article, they can't hear or understand very simple things that are happening around them, nor can they write. Why hijack an article if you can't write and you don't know the subject? But FOR SURE: don't lecture someone who's actually IN THE STORY that you are hacking on.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2C7:4480:49E0:11A:9E56:33F9:E38 (talk • contribs)

Linden, I have a busy week but eventually I think I can put together a satisfying version of the writing/recording process and the fallout afterward, including the limited lawsuit focusing only on the song "Thug" because the larger issue was judged too difficult to prosecute.

Others here have tried to convey to you the limitations of Wikipedia. I will join them in saying that Wikipedia does not exist to correct the historic record. Rather, its mission is to summarize the literature for the reader. In this case, the literature has conflicting facts, so what we can do is tell the reader the two versions so that they know what the issues are. We can give more WP:WEIGHT to the sources that have more details and are thus better supported.

You can help by pointing out the best published sources that support your position. if it's not already published, it's not suited for Wikipedia. Binksternet (talk) 21:27, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Binksternet, I think I can put together a satisfying version of the writing/recording process and the fallout afterward, including the limited lawsuit focusing only on the song "Thug" because the larger issue was judged too difficult to prosecute.

I was planning on doing the same thing, and have set about trying to get hold of copies of the biographies cited in the article so far, as it's a fascinating case. I haven't been able to find much at all about the Thug case but please do share any RSs you manage to dig up. Popcornfud (talk) 23:16, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

++ So much for what you say. But, hey, it really burned me that I (me) was talked about in the Fairlight BS. Billy told too many stories. There was no Fairlight (at least I wasnt part of that ridiculous BS). Also we've already been in the situation of you guyz not able to understand that David Blayney (first ZZ Roadie and stage manager 15 years) told all this decades ago (in a book by Disney). Now, people are again asking (as so many times before) again "whats a good source." There was a book by Deborah Frost of Rolling Stone, and David Sinclair (of the Times of London). There's Scott Bomar, a music insider, (Southbound: an illustrated history of Southern Rock). The ZZ machine/army wants these books to be forgotten as they don't like the story told, neither do you. Hearing u talk makes me think you work for Billy and the office. And, give me no more advice. You work free, who are you to say anything. Again, there's no conflict about the Eliminator album, only one of them played on it. Billy made that decision, now he spends lots of energy trying to kill the story. Frank is scared to death about people finding out he wasnt included (on several albums). I think you are barely involved, and barely qualified. Ive fought for my involvement for decades against a PR army and Ive done well. But the fight makes me tired. And, please notice Billy tells my story sometimes and covers it up at other times. Do you not find that to be messed up? Or do you know the Billy I'm talking about. Did you know that ZZ Tops first hit (Francine) wasnt their song and the true writers fought for decades to get any moneys, but never got much? Did you know that ZZs big song Thunderbird wasn't theirs? The real writers couldnt get paid. ZZ put their name on those items (do you care?, of course not). Did you know Lanier Grieg who wrote "waitin for the bus" didn't get credit or money (he was broke). There was Tom Vickers (music insider) who co wrote part of an album in the 90s but when the album was released? Well you know what happened to Tom. Just sayin. But Im the one you're suspicious of? Typical. Stars get the weighted credibility, that's the way it works and you know that. ++ But, I repeat, the critical reception section is low grade slop and had no meaning. It should be embarrassing for you to have any hand in such slop. You must be that guy (the critic that is not findable anywhere, trying to get your name placed). ++ Ill cool down. Ask me questions if you like. I have been the david in the Goliath story, fighting against people who treat songwriter/cowriters like crap. If you heard the whole story, and realized Ive fought for over 35 years just to keep my name out of the mud, which is strange and sick when you consider what I possibly (if you believe) did for them on Eliminator. Terry did too, but he was in a different biz situation. But Terry should have truly been a cowriter as well. Also, I hope you have found the writer demos for Eliminator that Ive posted on youtube so you can see the condition of the songs that I got the tunes in BEFORE they went to Terry Manning. Again, Im a Terry Manning fan, and he did way mas on this thing. Just have some understanding of what Ive been through and ask questions or say hello when you can.

Linden, I'm really interested in the story of this album and read your long blog post on the subject, and heard those demos you posted, long before you wrote anything on this talk page. I have a thousand questions I could ask you but this page is for working on the article, not general chat - see WP:NOTAFORUM for more information about that.

We are going to try to find copies of the sources you mention that have covered your story and see if we can update the article accordingly. In the meantime, you might find that Reddit would be a good place to invite questions from fans and interested people. (Try looking into doing an AMA post - "Ask Me Anything"). Take care. Popcornfud (talk) 00:06, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Linden, you are rightly defensive about this situation, but you are wrong to throw shade on me and Popcornfud. We do this for free on Wikipedia because we like it, end of story. Go ahead and toss out any kind of conspiracy nonsense about how we work for ZZ Top.

You've been deep in this stuff for almost four decades, but I'm just now getting a whiff. I appreciate the pointers to sources. Please have patience while Popcornfud and I get up to speed and work this out. Binksternet (talk) 00:10, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok, Im a very reasonable person, Im dropping my attitude. What do you want to know. No conspiracy, I believe you. By the way, there was a good bit of press when I sued for Thug, there was even a short article in Rolling Stone about it. I can send clippings if we figure a way to do it.

Tell me how to contact you Ill tell anything I know. Im not good with Wiki so I don't understand how to contact folks etc. Or find me on facebook, tell me who you are, ask to friend me, then we use messenger. Ive spent decades straightening this out and it sometimes seems that the band is believed before anyone else (star power). I could send you the david blayney book pages with me on them. Im devoted to telling about this. Im semi retired. I time and a laptop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2C7:4480:49E0:11A:9E56:33F9:E38 (talk • contribs)

I really hate FB Messenger. Do this instead: Go to User:Binksternet on a regular computer (not a mobile phone) and look at the left side of the screen where it says "tools". Click on "Email this user". That's the email address I use for Wikipedia communication. I would be interested to see scans or even cell phone camera photos of the clippings you have collected. Binksternet (talk) 02:42, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

++ I went to the place (user:Bi....) but looking at tools I saw no email link

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Background section

I can't agree that the size of this section is justified. Readers have come to this article to learn about the album Eliminator. They don't need to know facts like Beard organized a benefit concert and an album titled Freeway, working with engineers Steve Ames and Linden Hudson at Rampart Studios in Houston, or that the album released two albums before (Degüello) was certified platinum in 1980, or where Dusty Hill went on vacation, or that the band used a semi-pro, 1-inch, 16-track Tascam tape recorder to record demos for the album before Eliminator.

Background sections ought to give essential context but keep things focused and driving towards a point. The reading experience here is confusing - you have to read a long way before it's clear how any of this has anything to do with Eliminator, and most of it doesn't. Popcornfud (talk) 11:29, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm generally in favor of providing more background detail, to set up the context.

A few ideas were lost in your Sept 3 trimming job, for instance:

• That Beard knew Hudson from his detox clinic benefit album.
• That Beard was not present for much of the development of Eliminator songs because he was playing golf as a method of staying away from drugs.
• That the rehearsal studio in Beard's home contained semi-pro recording equipment used to develop most of Eliminator.

Let's figure out what is dross and what is grain. Binksternet (talk) 16:27, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Should be easy to concisely summarise those points in the article - just as you've managed here. Popcornfud (talk) 16:54, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Binksternet,

What do you think of this draft?

On their previous album, El Loco (1981), ZZ Top worked with engineer Linden Hudson. Drummer Frank Beard had met Hudson while working on the album Freeway, recorded to finance his stay in a Huston detox community for his narcotics addiction.

Beard invited engineer Hudson to move into his house in Quail Valley, on the outskirts of Houston, and design a private studio for ZZ Top. Hudson also introduced ZZ Top to drum machines and synthesizers. Gibbons later called Hudson "an influential associate... a gifted songwriter... He brought some elements to the forefront that helped reshape what ZZ Top were doing, starting in the studio and eventually to the live stage."

To perform the El Loco material live, ZZ Top began using click tracks and pre-recorded tracks containing synthesizer parts, drum samples and other elements. None of this was made public; Bill Ham, the band's manager, was closely controlling the image of the band to create a "mystique" of self-sufficiency and authenticity.

IMO, the fact that Beard wasn't present for most of the recording of Eliminator should be covered in the Recording section; this is just background.

Readers will naturally assume that ZZ Top's private studio contained professional recording equipment, so we probably don't need to establish that here; again, the details of exactly what they used to record the album can be covered in the Recording section. (It isn't clear, from the current draft, that the "semi-pro, 1-inch, 16-track Tascam tape recorder" was used for Eliminator, if that's the intent - it's presented as information about El Loco.) Stay on target! Popcornfud (talk) 20:58, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Beard had more than enough money for his own treatment at Palmer; I'm sure the benefit concert and Freeway album were intended to help Palmer generally with their budget, or even just to get the word out and get more community involvement, to get the attention of people who might become patients. In the spirit of trimming, how about the following wording?

ZZ Top drummer Frank Beard had a large house in Quail Valley on the outskirts of Houston, Texas. The band wanted to have a private rehearsal studio, so Beard invited engineer Linden Hudson to move in and supervise a recording studio in his home. Hudson designed the studio and oversaw its construction. ZZ Top used this studio in 1980 to work on material for their album, El Loco (1981), with Hudson helping to craft several songs; he introduced bandleader Billy Gibbons to drum machines. Hudson was not credited for his work but was promised future compensation. Gibbons later called Hudson "an influential associate... a gifted songwriter... He brought some elements to the forefront that helped reshape what ZZ Top were doing, starting in the studio and eventually to the live stage." To perform the El Loco material live, ZZ Top began using click tracks and pre-recorded tracks containing synthesizer parts, drum samples and other elements. None of this was made public; Bill Ham, the band's manager, was closely controlling the image of the band to create a "mystique" of self-sufficiency and authenticity.

References

This version jettisons any mention of drugs and golf. It jumps past how Hudson knew the band. Binksternet (talk) 22:37, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Sorry for my late reply, I forgot about this. That looks like a great improvement on the current version to me, stick it in there! Popcornfud (talk) 14:00, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

The vocals on "Bad Girl"

Are still not sung by Dusty Hill but by Billy Gibbons at the top of his range. There is no source given here, so where does the idea come from? Jules TH 16 (talk) 15:24, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't see the idea expressed in this article, and there is no article about the song. The idea is not expresed at the Gibbons biography nor the Hill bio. Where did you find it? Binksternet (talk) 15:49, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

It's not something you find. It's something you can hear. The biggest ZZ Top fan I know - somebody who has studied their output down to the details - talked about it here. There is also a collage of Billy's various vocal styles on YouTube. His high parts start at about 3:30 and "Bad Girl" (starting at 5:45) fits right in. Dusty had a more voluminous voice, compare "Hi Fi Mama". Jules TH 16 (talk) 13:56, 10 October 2021 (UTC)