Template talk:English regions

NB. Most of the contents of this discussion page were written as discussion when the template was Template:United Kingdom regions, including both England regions and other parts of the UK. Then, on September 12 2005, somebody changed the content of the template to limit it to England, and moved it to the new name Template:England regions. A few hours later, somebody else moved the template back to its former name and reverted it to its former content; and recreated Template:England regions via cut-and-paste.

How does this template work? For exmaple when you are on the england page, the england link is not a link. How does that work?

This is a general feature of links from a page to itself, not just for templates. For example, if I type [[Template talk:United Kingdom]] and [[Template talk:United Kingdom regions]] here then the first becomes a link while the second is bolded, i.e. Template talk:United Kingdom and Template talk:United Kingdom regions. --Henrygb 14:28, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Needs to be merged

This template is unnecessary and misleading. It's called "United Kingdom regions", but it is just the Template:United_Kingdom, with the Regions of England added. Either create a separate "Regions of England" template, or put that information in the various "Districts of England" templates (i.e., Template:NE_England). --JW1805 18:41, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

In fact this template lists the 12 NUTS level 1 regions of the UK as used by Eurostat and Office for National Statistics for regional statistics, so it is not misleading. Since someone is as likely to want to go from North East England to Scotland as to South East England, there is no need to remove Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. But the template exists because some Scots do not want to be equated with English regions, ands so is a compromise which came out of Template:United Kingdom. It works and does no harm. So keep. --Henrygb 09:15, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying (Although, by that classification, "England" shouldn't even be on here, since it isn't a NUTS region). However, I still don't like this template. It's confusing. My first thought on seeing it was "why aren't the regions of Scotland, Wales, and NI listed?" Also, there are links to 4 articles on this template that do not actualy contain this template (which doesn't conform to Wikipedia standards). Finally, there needs to be a separate "Regions of England" template to match the various other UK regions templates (e.g. Template:Scotland subdivisions, Template:Wales_subdivisions, ...).--JW1805 17:19, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

But Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have a single level of local government. England does not. There is Template:England counties, but that for example does not list Birmingham City Council, which is more substantial than any of the subdivisions of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. Greater London is politically and economically more significant that each of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as a whole. England is peculiar and we have to live with that. --Henrygb 09:18, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Recent Edits

Mais oui!, please explain what you are doing. You have changed the name of this template, and then basically made it a copy of Template:United Kingdom, without any discussion. At least Henrygb gave a reason for why this template should exist. I'm reverting back to the previous version, pending further discussion. --JW1805 17:44, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

The Ulster Banner

This flag is not the flag of Northern ireland and its inclusion is POV, see Northern Ireland flags issue.--padraig3uk 15:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree the Ulster Banner is not the Flag of Northern Ireland and should not be used as such.--Vintagekits 09:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

This is the de facto flag of NI. Please see the extensive discussion on the issue at Talk:Northern Ireland. Please also discuss disputed changes on this page first. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. 163.167.129.124 10:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I am well aware of the "extensive discussion on the issue at Talk:Northern Ireland" as I have been a part of the discussion, like I told you on my talk page - the majority believe that it should be removed as it 1. has no official standing and 2. only has limited de facto status amongest a section of the population and some sporting organisations - wiki deals in facts not POV and this template should reflect that. I also suggest that you register a user name and other editors will give you more credability then editing as an IP. regards--Vintagekits 11:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

You can suggest whatever you like. However, comments like "removing British POV...long live the Malvinas!" hardly give you any credibility. 163.167.129.124 11:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The comment was made in jest, I know the other editors that I am discussing the issue with and they know what it means. If you registered maybe people might get to know you. Or maybe you already have been previously registered - something I need to look into.--Vintagekits 11:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Although I do not like your vaguely menacing undertone, please do "look into" whatever you feel the need to look into. However, I would respectfully suggest that an encyclopedia is not the place for "jesting." 163.167.129.124 11:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the Ulster banner from the template it isn't the legal flag of Northern Ireland.--padraig3uk 14:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Please see here. You will NOT get the changes you want by edit warring! 163.167.129.124 14:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Removing POV is not edit warring, the Ulster Banner is not the legal or offical flag of Northern Ireland nor has it been since 1972, and no matter how much you and others try to promote your own Politcal agenda on WP, the facts don't change, so either provide evidence that this is now the legal flag of Northern Ireland or stop your edit warring.--padraig3uk 14:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The following edits do look like edit warring: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]. You don't have consensus. 07:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

This is what the British Government says about the Ulster Banner:

Lord Greaves asked Her Majesty's Government:

What legislation covers the definition of the form, shape and design, and any rules about the permitted use, of (a) the union flag; (b) the English flag (cross of St George); (c) the Scottish flag(St Andrew's saltire) (d) the Scottish royal lion flag (e) the Welsh flag (dragon); (f) the flag of Northern Ireland. [HL1099]

18 Jan 2007 : Column WA181

Lord Davies of Oldham: (a & b) There is no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the union flag or the English flag (St George's cross). There are no rules about the permitted use of the union flag or English flag (cross of St George) on non-government buildings, provided the flag is flown on a single vertical flagstaff and neither the flag nor the flagstaff display any advertisement additional to the design of the flag as explained under the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations 1992. Government departments are restricted to flying flags on 18 fixed days a year in compliance with rules issued by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which considers it improper to fly the union flag upside down and requires that the flag should not be defaced by text or symbols and should be treated with respect.

(c & d) There is also no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the Royal Arms of Scotland (here referred to as The Scottish royal lion flag) or the St Andrew's cross, but the design is firmly specified in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland. The Royal Arms of Scotland can only be used by the Sovereign or Her Great Lieutenants when acting in their official capacity. The Scottish flag(St Andrew's cross) may be flown by Scots and to represent Scotland on all occasions; however, under The Act of Lyon King of Arms Act 1672, cap. 47 individuals may not deface the flag by placing a symbol on top of the flag or use it in such a way that suggests it is his/her personal property.

(e) There is no specific legislation about the Welsh flag design or rules about permitted use.

(f) The union flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland. The Flags (NI) Order 2000 empowered the Secretary of State to make the Flags Regulations (NI) 2000, which governs when and where the union flag can be flown from government buildings in Northern Ireland on specified days. The legislation does not define the form, shape or design of the union flag. Flag flying from non-governmental buildings is unregulated.

For all flags, consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which requires flags to be treated with respect, not to be defaced by text or symbols or flown upside down. [11] --padraig3uk 09:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no need to keep posting the same thing over and over. There is nothing new in the quote that you give - it essentially says that there isn't really much legislation on any of the flags and that the union flag should be flown from government buildings on certain days.

The Flag of Northern Ireland or "Ulster Banner" is the widely recognised de facto flag to uniquely represent Northern Ireland. No one else is claiming it to be 'official', but things don't have to be 'official' to have credibility. You have removed the standard NIR template totally against consensus and hence you are being reverted yet again. Jonto 16:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Jonto, i am not going to revert it this time. What I am going to do it ask Padraig3uk to provide evidence that the other UK national flags hold that offical or legal status that Padraig3uk states that they dont. At least that way we might me able to see a way out of this edit war. What do you think?--Vintagekits 16:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand your proposal. Regardless, this is the wrong place to be 'edit warring' anyway because this article simply uses the standard NIR template. Jonto 16:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The standard NIR template is wrong, this is not the flag of Northern Ireland, but the flag that of one section of the population uses to try and promote a secterian political viewpoint.--padraig3uk 23:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

In reply to Vintagekits question above, the British government response given above states that in the case of the English flag or St Georges Cross:

here are no rules about the permitted use of the union flag or English flag (cross of St George) on non-government buildings, provided the flag is flown on a single vertical flagstaff and neither the flag nor the flagstaff display any advertisement additional to the design of the flag as explained under the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations 1992.

so the British Government accepts this flag can be and is used to represent England. In the case of Scotland and the St Andrews Cross:

The Scottish flag(St Andrew's cross) may be flown by Scots and to represent Scotland on all occasions; however, under The Act of Lyon King of Arms Act 1672, cap. 47 individuals may not deface the flag by placing a symbol on top of the flag or use it in such a way that suggests it is his/her personal property.

So the British government states the flag can be and is used to represent Scotland. In the case of Wales it just states there are no regulations on its design or permitted use. In the case of Northern Ireland, here the government clearly states that only the Union Flag is official, the Ulster Banner is not even mentioned in their responce, if the flags of England Scotland and Wales where not official as some editors say, then why did the government not state this, and as in the case of Northern Ireland say only the Union Flag could be used.--padraig3uk 11:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

To padraig3uk. The Union Flag is the official flag to represent Northern Ireland in a political sense. Otherwise it is seen by many as the de facto flag of Northern Ireland and is used to represent Northern Ireland in sports and other things in a sense of regional identity. The only people that really object to the use of the Ulster Banner in any form even unofficially are Irish republicans. The Ulster flag used to be the official flag of Northern Ireland based on its only ever coat of arms, and seeing as it never had one prior or since how can you object to it being used in an identity sense?

As a side-point/question, isn't Saint Patrick's flag used to represent the island of Ireland on Wikipedia? If it is as i think it is don't forget its de facto (fact but not in law) and not de jure (according to law). So if it can be used then why not the Ulster flag or is it coz if sectarian oppossition to its usage? Oh yeah and like the Ulster flag, Saint Patrick's flag is originally based on a coat of arms.

Doing a define: de facto search on Google and the common agreeing of the meaning of de facto is in fact but not legally. The Ulster flag is used de facto to represent Northern Ireland just as Irish republicans like to use the Irish tricolour as the de facto flag for the island of Ireland.

Oh and as a final note, padraig3uk and VIntageKits say its only the POV flag for a section of Northern Ireland. Can you please provide sources and proof for this? Its just the same as me stating the fact that the section of the community that make use of the Ulster flag as the de facto flag for Northern Ireland is bigger than the minority republican section of the community that opposes it.

Mabuska 01:26, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes the Union Flag is the only flag to represent Northern Ireland, it is the only flag recognised by both the British Government and the Northern Ireland Assembly we are not debating that though. The discussion here concerns the Ulster Banner which is the former governmental banner of the government of the Northern Ireland Parliament prorouged in 1972, and abolished under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973. The fact remains the Ulster Banner never was a civic flag of Northern Ireland even between the period of its use by the government 1953-72. It cannot be flown from any government building in Northern Ireland today.

The Saint Patricks flag was use prior to 1922 to represent All-Ireland under British rule and is still used today by the Church of Ireland, and in some sport contexts. As for google what has that got to do with what the flag of Northern Ireland is, but if you want look closely at the results in google and most of the links will state the flag is un-official and has no status.

Claims of de facto status suffer a big problem, the flag is used by a minority of the Unionist community, those of the Loyalist side, most Unionists use the Union flag, in fact in the Assembly debate on the 2000 flag regulations not one of the Unionist parties supported the Ulster Banner not even the PUP even brought it up in the negotiations on the flags issue, every one of them supported the Union Flag as the flag of Northern Ireland, dosen't that say alot for the Ulster banner and claims for its de facto status.

As for your last statement on the side you claim uses the flag that it larger then the Nationalist side that reject it, in the last couple of elections the difference between the nationist and unionist vote was in the region of 60,000 votes. Hardly a massive majority is it.

I have no interest in POV in this discussion, the Facts don't support the use of the Ulster banner Today to represent Northern Ireland, and those claiming it does outside of its use in some sports events have failed to provide any evidence to support their claims.--padraig 01:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

We all know the flag is unofficial i even said that myself above. Sorry for going out of topic as i'm about to do. My statement on one side bigger than the other was simply to show that it would need proof just like VintageKIts and padraig3uk's statements on the similar. However on your 60'000 difference comment - don't forget that nationalist turnout is always higher than unionist turnout, and many unionists don't vote for reasons to do with certain UUP/DUP stances. You can't go by the election results just as most Scots who voted for the SNP in the Scottish elections didn't do so for their nationalist republican ideals. You'd need a border poll and a 100% turnout to see what the real difference would be.

Back to flags - the Union Flag is a bigger symbol of Unionism than the Ulster Flag seeing as it is the flag of the union, maybe thats why the uuionists voted for its use instead? If i was a unionist i'd vote for the Union Flag as it makes a declaration that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom - something (which they probably well knew) would annoy republicans. The Ulster Banner doesn't denote such a strong sense of unionism and has been used by some (on the unionist side) in an independant Northern Ireland manner.

On point on de facto use, Saint Patrick's flag was never used officially according to the wikipedia page on the flag. Yes it is used by the Church of Ireland, the PSNI, the Irish Guards and other organisations yet its not de jure but de facto for use to represent Ireland. The only official use (which another wikipedia article states) it had was in the composition of the Union Flag.

If you want proof that the flag is still used outside of sport use: on the Northern Ireland Flags Issue wikipedia page, it is stated (with reference) that the Ulster Banner is still flown by Castlereagh Council amongst others.

To me the union flag denotes a stronger sense of unionism link with the UK. However the Ulster Banner is more useful in an regional identity sense. On wikipedia i wouldn't object to the Ulster Banner being used in a regional purpose as everyone near enough knows the flag is associated with Northern Ireland official or not.

Mabuska 23:32, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Mabuska the Ulster Banner is flown by about three out of twenty-eight local authorities in Northern Ireland, these are Unionist controled councils, that hardly makes it a de facto flag. Also WP is an encyclopedia it should present facts not use defunct flags as eyecandy, fact are Northern Ireland dosen't have a National flag and WP shouldn't try to invent one.--padraig 23:41, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Padraig it don't matter if only three councils use it, and that they are all unionist controlled councils. I wasn't stating it so we could say we could use it for Wikipedia. I stated it just to counter your claim that there's no evidence of it being used outside of sport, and well now you know it is, even if in such a limited manner.

Would also like to say... hey we made the News Letter today for this debate! Comments from Simon Hamilton (DUP) and Danny Kennedy (UUP) in the article basically backup why i thought unionists choose the Union Flag over the Ulster Banner - as it makes very clear that we are part of the United Kingdom.

Maybe the Ulster Banner should be used for Northern Irish sport articles and the Union Flag for all the other Northern Ireland articles. That way its use can't be argued over as much as the flags are being used in their respective roles.

Mabuska 11:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

That is my point the Ulster Banner shouldn't be used on articles or templates refering to Northern Ireland today, unless its regarding sport where the banner is used or in a historical context, and if a flag is necessary to be used then it should be the Union flag or none. I haven't got access to the News Letter, I wonder if that is online.--padraig 12:28, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

You beat to the historical context, i.e. using the Ulster Banner for articles to do with Northern Ireland when the flag was official. Dunno if its online or not but its page 4 of todays News Letter even if you have to give it a quick glance in a newsagents Mabuska 18:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the best thing to do, as the use of the unionjack could potentially be confusing when used to represent N Ireland(especially in the context of England, Scotland & Wales also) would be to use an image of the territory of N Ireland, as proposed on the Northen Ireland talk page. Fennessy 21:26, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Jonto just put the Ulster banner back up, without consulting anyone or discussing the issue. Somebody take it down so I cant be accused of edit warring? There seems to be no one who has posted here recently who agrees it should be there. Yawn...

Protected

I have protected the template for a week because of the dispute over which flag, if any, should be used for Northern Ireland. Please try to resolve disputes on the talk page and come to a consensus. Sam Blacketer 12:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

If you read this section you will understand why the Ulster Banner should not be used as the Flag of Northern Ireland.--Vintagekits 10:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

That was written by someone with POV in this issue. Astrotrain 13:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Actualy it was written by someone with no interest in the issue, and is based on the Northern Ireland flags issue and the facts of the issue.--padraig 13:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually it is an essay and not a policy ofr guidline- it reflects the views of the author. Astrotrain 13:40, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

It was put together by many editors and debated and altered during its time, so it reflect the consensus of those editors involved.--padraig 13:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Everyon has a POV. If you have an issue with it then please try and work to changing it - but its the guideline we have at the moment. Please try and work within policy.--Vintagekits 13:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

How do we go about getting it changed so when a person puts in the code for the flag of Northern Ireland, the Ulster banner is not used? I think thats the real issue here. Fennessy 22:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I dont know, anyone?--Vintagekits 13:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

See: Template talk:Country data Northern Ireland that is the main template that is used by {{tl:Flagicon}} {{tl:NIR}} etc to render the flag, the problem is its used also in the sports templates.--padraig 13:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Fully protected

... yet again, at The Wrong Version no doubt. It's clear that nothing has been resolved here since last May. Can you guys please try to work this one out and come to some consensus as it's just a time-waster for everyone at this stage? Note also the three-revert rule as I've just started monitoring this template and will be enforcing this accordingly - Alison ☺ 22:02, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Alison have a look Here I reported this user for reverting my edits, I suspect this was a established editor as this is the second time in the past few days this has happened to me with anon IP reverting my edits.--padraig 22:09, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Totally neutral on this: the Union flag should always be used when referring to NI, as per this, which says that the Union Flag is official. Will ^(talk) 22:14, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Union Flag is official as the flag of the United Kingdom not the Flag of Northern Ireland - there is no flag of Northern Ireland at the moment.--Vintagekits 22:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Good point, must've misread - but I'd side for using the Union flag because, and I quote, "The union flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland." Will ^(talk) 22:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

If you use the Union Flag then you would have to remove the E,W and Scot flags and replace it with that to be consistant.--Vintagekits 22:25, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree but some people want to POV push to use a defunct flag.--padraig 22:18, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

That's not even the issue. The issue is Alison protecting a version of a page which has seen massive sockpuppetry in order to violate 3RR. This is one of the worst protections I've ever seen. Keep in mind I'm American and I couldn't give a hoot which flag you guys use. Of course, there's no point in me bringing it up on ANI, as I'll only see a lot of holier than thou quotes of "THE WRONG VERSION" with that little m attached in front; nevermind I'm uninvolved. posted by User:The Evil Spartan

For someone who "doesn't give a hoot", I note that you have also been involved in reversion. Frankly, the issue is not entirely based around 3RR-evading sock-puppets and goes much deeper than that. See my comment below. I'm sorry you're disappointed in my decision but you are free, of course, to contest it and request another admin's opinion - Alison ☺ 23:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Alison, I reverted the page, but I don't even know what difference it made. I've only seen the diffs. I haven't even pulled the page up to see which flag I'm adding - I just don't think trolls should be fed for reverting using their IPs. The Evil Spartan 23:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Then put in an {{editprotected}} request and get an admin to change it to the one you like best. I'm not gonig to be accused of POV in reverting to whatever I feel is correct, given that there has been a long-running content dispute on this page for months now. It's one of the main reasons I don't edit these articles. - Alison ☺ 23:32, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Fine enough. I'm not trying to make life hard on you. If anything, it's as resolved as it will get. The Evil Spartan 23:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

There are no need for flags on this template as the Union Flag is already in the Template title.--padraig 22:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, this is it. It's patently obvious that there has been no consensus on this article to-date and that this flags nonsense has been going on for months now. It really need to stop and, I guess, now it has. There are a number of ways of moving this forward from here and the main one should be working towards some consensus. Given the bickering that was beginning to overflow onto WP:RPP, this was not going to get resolved if I'd somehow protected the "right" revision. There's a long history to this, as you all know. In fact, I protected the article at an arbitrary revision.

Sock-puppetry aside (and I acknowledge that), this template needs to be put to rest. Gain consensus, post comments to WP:IWNB and WP:NIWNB and get input from all sides. Once some sort of agreement has been reached, then that can be enforced because right now, I'm not seeing any consensus here. That is the root of the problem. - Alison ☺ 23:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Alison there is consensus that the Ulster Banner should't be used in these templates in relation to Northern Ireland today, except for Astrotrain who continiously reverts them to include this banner.--padraig 23:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Alison brings up that we could just get rid of the flags altogether. They probably just aren't worth it. While I had already thought of this, and rejected it (this seems to be one of those templates where flags might actually be useful), I think that maybe she has a point. They're not that informative: and, as WP:FLAG says it: this flagcruft can go overboard. It's not worth it in the end. It's a stupid flag. It doesn't really help navigation that much anyway. The Evil Spartan 00:07, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

From the outside, this looks like ridiculous, tribal flag-waving of the worst kind (literally). Get rid of them all - they add no useful content to the template - Alison ☺ 00:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Alison I did remove the flags leaving just the Union Banner in the Template title, but everytime it get reverted. I totally agree there are no need for flags.--padraig 00:26, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok - I've reduced protection to semi now, given the above discussion. But please - this ridiculous flag-war needs to end - Alison ☺ 01:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad everyone here who actually wants to resolve this issue doesnt favor using the Ulster banner for the flag of N Ireland. But I think its over-board to not use legitimate flags that regular people identify with the respective nations, that are completly harmless. Fennessy 14:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't care whether there are flags or not. But to only have three looks odd highlighting the alledged flagnessless of Northern Ireland, especially as this template is only used on pages about English regions which generally do not have flags of their own. Since use of the Ulster Banner will not get consensus, why use any flags at all?--Rumping (talk) 01:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Revert-warring

If User:Astrotrain and friends insist on revert-warring here, will they please ensure that the correct protection template is transcluded and not subst'd. Also, reverting to a version with a full-protect banner is inappropriate - Alison ☺ 19:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

While we are on the subject, and seeing as you are an administrator Alison, can you please see about getting the Template:United Kingdom constituents and affiliations page unprotected? I might be speaking too soon but it seems like the last place left were the Ulster banner is still in erroneous use. Fennessy 22:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Not unprotected - you really need to discuss this with the protecting admin, User:Tariqabjotu, who only protected days ago with the message, "this flag issue just doesn't seem to want to go away" - Alison ☺ 22:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)