Talk:Gabriele D'Annunzio

Untitled

Why is it that D'Anuzzio is considered the movements founder when really he enhance medieval and Roman methods, Mussolini used these to create it and founded the political system and priorities of fascism not D'Anuzzio

precursor

In fact the article clearly says (more than once) that he is a 'precursor' not a founder of fascism. If you think this needs clarifying in the article, please edit as appropriate. --mervyn 15:23, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Really though he is always considered otherly as the movements forefather he only enhasnced previous methods of violence and only took control of Fiume as it was not considered fascist but a nationalistic revoulutionary attempt and as that many sites claim he is the forefather

Yes, but after Mussolini founded the Fascist party, he became an ardent supporter of Fascism.

I've read it took personal effort by Mussolini to somewhat literally "court" D'Annunzio to Fascism... I can't recall where, though. Someone might know.--Jm woltjen 15:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

That's wrong, a tipical view of D'Annunzio by many people outside of Italy. The truth is that D'Annunzio was very diffident about Mussolini and his party, and during the fascism he lived retired and alone in his home (known as "Vittoriale"). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.1.70.182 (talk • contribs) 3 April 2006.

Too bad he was a Fascist. He is really a great poet. Das Baz 16:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Some other miscellany that I recall from my reading on D'Annunzio: (1) Mussolini did divert funds intended to support D'Annunzio at Fiume to the coffers of the Fascist party (2) Mussolini traded openly on the nationalist fervor surrounding Fiume to support his movement (3) The rebels at Fiume had planned a direct assault in the South of the country that was (I believe) scuttled due to Mussolini. 99% confident about the first two -- I'll look into all of those and see if I can get some citations.

Also, if I recall correctly, the arditi used the fist-to-chest-to-air salute that became emblematic of the fascist movement in later years, but I'm not sure of the direct chronology there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.149.176.206 (talk • contribs) 5 July 2006.

Photos

As I do not yet know how to do it myself, I request that the photos on three other wikipedias be brought to this article: the Italian page, the Galician page, and the Dutch page. —Morning star 5 July 2005 19:35 (UTC)

Just download the pics to your machine (most browsers have a right-button popup menu for this), and upload those to the commons [1], mentioning where you got them from, so we don't suck up disk space with multiple copies of everything, then just refer to them in the article. No rocket science involved. Stan 5 July 2005 22:09 (UTC)

Thanks for the helpful advice Stan. "Teach a man to fish..." —Morning star 6 July 2005 14:42 (UTC)

Fiume

This article neglects to mention anything of substance concerning the actual pattern of life in D'Annunzio lead Fiume. There was nothing fascist about it, infact it was rather utopic in a doomed sort of way. Daily life was devoted to music, poetry and drinking. The constitution declared music to be the central principle of the state. The adventure was financed through piracy on italian merchant vessels. Sounds like a fun 18 months. D'Annunzio's politics were unstable, it is well known he swung widely between left and right. His actions however, clearly mark him as an aristrocratic anarchist who was more concerned with romantic deeds than politics.

Feel free to add - I think info about daily life would be better at Fiume, since it is more about the people of the city rather than D'Annunzio personally. Be sure that the reference support this or add some of your own sources, I don't have any non-philatelic references myself. Stan 11:40, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I disagree that the information should be spun into the Fiume article. While it's certainly relevant to the town's history, the D'Annunzio episode was an aberration in the history of the town -- indeed it's pretty much an aberration in the entire 20th century -- so it doesn't really belong in the main article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.149.176.206 (talk • contribs) 5 July 2006.

So Holocaust should be removed from Wikipedia as well for being "an aberration" of history? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.159.103.92 (talk) 22:46, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

In this respect, you might find Hakim Bey's famous essay on the Temporary Autonomous Zone useful. It is reproduced at Hakim Bey and Ontological Anarchy. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:39, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Despite being fun reading, a lot of that article is unreliable. We need better sourcing, honestly, not anarchist propaganda. (Don't get me wrong, I love HB/Peter Laborn Wilson's writing, but it's hardly authoritative) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.149.176.206 (talk • contribs) 5 July 2006.

To elaborate on the above -- how there's no mention of the pillage used to support the state at Fiume -- the "pirates" referenced in that infamous and somewhat anachronistic Hakim Bey / Peter Lamborn Wilson article did in fact board a ship at Genoa by hiding in the engine room, hijacked it, snuck it past patrols, and landed it at Fiume, laying out the cargo on the beach and auctioning it off. There were also battles staged to professional symphonies. Pretty sure things of this nature happened multiple times, with the original owners just buying back their lost property. (I'll try to find the primary sources on that -- although in reality they're secondary sources considering the originals are pretty much all in Italian.)

Additionally, D'Annunzio did not lead the occupation of Fiume, although he did accompany them -- the troops were led by a pair of sympathetic generals, the international force left with no dispute, and the bulk of the occupying force (including most of the arditi, IIRC) didn't arrive until later. There were a number of ships captured in the harbor, including the cruiser 'Dante Aligheri,' at least one destroyer, and a number of gunboats. (Same deal on sources as above.) The Italian parliament was otherwise occupied and didn't really make any attempt to retake the city until much later, when a single bombardment from the fleet into D'Annunzio's house was enough to convince him to surrender the next day. Up until that point, they essentially just kept the city under quarantine by land. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.149.176.206 (talk • contribs) 5 July 2006.

Britannica?

The article contains the boilerplate "This article incorporates text from the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica…" but the 1911 EB doesn't seem to have an article on D'Annunzio (who would, at that time, have been known mainly as a writer). Any idea what in Britannica was actually used? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:39, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

AHA! They have him under "ANNUNZIO, GABRIELE D'" -- Jmabel | Talk 01:45, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Other writers...

Recently added in the section on "Other writers linked to fascism":

• Carl Pearson, Socialism in Theory and Practice (1884)
• Benjamin Kidd, Social Evolution (1894)

I am guessing (on the basis of a web search) that Carl Pearson should be Karl Pearson. He was linked with eugenics, and Kidd was certainly a racialist (not an unusual thing in the 19th century), but how are either of them "linked to fascism"? Or are we going to say that all 19th century racialists and all eugenicists are "linked to fascism"? Seems to me that's writing history backwards. I am removing these pending an explanation. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:30, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

The more I think about this section, the less I think it belongs in the article at all. This should be either a category or list (or more than one category or list, with clear criteria), or perhaps an article. But it doesn't belong as a section of an article about D'Annunzio.

Besides what seems to me to be inappropriate placement, I have problems with the conception. "Linked to" is so vague. Wyndham Lewis, for example, embraced Hitler early on, but renounced him by the time WWII was approaching. I don't think Vilfredo Pareto ever in any way supported fascism (which was still pretty nascent when he died). I gather that Mussolini read him and liked what he read, but that's a very different kind of "linkage" than actively supporting fascism oneself. If we go the list/category route, we need to distinguish writers who actively supported fascism from those who the fascists embraced posthumously, and we probably need to differentiate those who recanted early (which probably argues for a list, rather than categories, so these distinctions can easily be made). -- Jmabel | Talk 05:43, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you on this -- perhaps mention of these writers can go onto Fascism page or something. In general, this article needs more updating. At one time I edited it to simplify some of the outdated EB phraseology, but it looks as though more chunks of 1911 text have been pasted in raw. mervyn 08:49, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to cut it from the article, and copy that material and this discussion to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fascism. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:24, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Dalmatian extraction

I'm from Pescara. I never heard nor read about G. D'Annunzio being of Dalmatian extraction. In the Italian's entry this fact is not mentioned at all. Can someone provide a citation about this fact? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.221.29.62 (talk • contribs) 23 September 2006.

Deleted image

Does anyone know why the image previously at commons:Image:d'Annunzio in Fiume.jpg was deleted? It's from a date that would presumably mean it was public domain. - Jmabel | Talk 03:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks like there was a big shakeup involving images marked "public domain in Italy" on Commons due to an EU directive that changed Italian copyright law. (More than anyone wants to know here.) It seems like that photo would have been published before 1923, though, so it could probably be uploaded here, rather than Commons, as public domain in the U.S. —Celithemis 06:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I had an exchange about this on Commons. Basically, we need to prove that the image was published pre-1923, same issue as it would be here. It was an obviously professional photograph, and I can't imagine it not having been published sooner rather than later, but there has clearly been an effective consensus to get very strict. We need to find an image that we can specifically show was published at the time. - Jmabel | Talk 06:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

D'Annunzio or d'Annunzio?

All of the mentions of him I have encountered spell it D'Annunzio. I believe d'Annunzio is incorrect although it is more traditional in terms of appearance. Algabal 03:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The Italian Wikipedia gives him as a lower-case "d'Annunzio." Nihil novi 20:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia can hardly be used a source to justify spelling on Wikipedia! Algabal 21:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Currently, the article is titled "d'Annunzio" but every single reference to him in the article is "D'Annunzio". That has to be fixed, one way or another. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 22:17, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Propaganda

to drop propaganda leaflets on Vienna. Those leaflets said:
Viennesi!
Imparate a conoscere gli Italiani. [...]

Really? Given that Vienna is and was a primarily German-speaking city, wouldn't the leaflets have been in German? I'm not sure what the point is of having a lengthy extract of untranslated Italian in the middle of the article -- particularly as it appears to be broken off in the middle.RandomCritic 14:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

See Flight over Vienna. Two separate types of leaflets were dropped, one in Italian and one in German. --NEMT (talk) 06:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

NPOV

The sections of this article describing his literary works in the sections Life and Works are bursting with superfluous praise, it isn't NPOV. I am therefore adding the POV check template.193.67.113.2 09:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Ode To The Serb Nation

D'Annunzuio's poetic work "Ode alla nazione Serba" or the "Ode to the Serb nation", written in support of the Serbs' struggle in the Great War against the Germans and Austrians, is NOT mentioned in this article.

If you have the pertinent information, by all means please add it. Nihil novi 19:57, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Photo

The Italian Wikipedia "Gabriele d'Annunzio" article opens with a beautiful photo of the author with a gentle demeanor, in civilian dress, with a flower in his lapel (Immagine:Dannunzio.jpg). It would make a nice counterpoint to the formidable d'Annunzio at the top of the English Wikipedia article. Could someone enter the Italian photo into Commons so we could use it? (I'd do it myself, but someone would have to show me how — the explanations are too abstract for me.) Nihil novi 20:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

It is a great photo -- certainly better than the drawing -- but Italian Wikipedia is declaring it public domain based on an Italian law that says "non-artistic" photographs are public domain after twenty years. Commons doesn't accept images on that basis; see the tag on the image itself and, if you like, the rather mind-numbing conversation about the legal situation on Commons. To find out whether we can use it, we'd need to know who took the photo and when it was published. —Celithemis 22:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps there's an Italian-speaker here — or an English-speaker there — who could try to find this out? Nihil novi 22:28, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

intro doesn't match the rest of the article

The intro says:

went on to have a controversial role in politics as figurehead to the Italian Fascist movement and mentor to Benito Mussolini.

But reading the body of the article, it looks like he basically retired to his home after the Fiume debacle, and didn't take an active part in the Italian Fascist movement, much less mentor Mussolini. Perhaps what it means to say is that he was a precursor and/or inspiration to Mussolini and the Fascist movement? If so, it should say that---the current article intro strongly implies that he was actively involved with them as a sort of philosophical leader/mentor. --Delirium 09:27, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, the introduction lists him as a "womanizer", but the article only refers to two women he ever had a relationship with. If there is justification in his writing for labeling him a womanizer, this should be referenced in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.59.27.33 (talk) 21:39, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

He most certainly was a womanizer, as any other biography will mention his many lovers/mistresses. They just happen to not be noted in this article. Sexual openness was one of the features of Carnaro as well. I would add references, but it's not a major point and I'm lazy. --NEMT (talk) 01:50, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Currently just risible: his role in politics was controversial due to him being a fascist. Some encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.14.150.232 (talk) 05:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Death?

Another article mentioned that he was assassinated (or that there was a failed assassination attempt or something along those lines), and yet nothing about it exists in this article. Not even if it was even a peaceful death. I would like to know more about this, so could someone add SOMETHING about his death to this article? Thanks! -- 66.92.0.62 (talk) 09:17, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 23:03, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Gabriele d'Annunzio → Gabriele D'Annunzio –

• the most used spelling has a capitalized D. See the same lead of the article ("Gabriele D'Annunzio....sometimes spelled d'Annunzio") the Italian wikipedia page, IMDB ([2]), the Encyclopædia Britannica ([3]), the Enciclopedia Treccani ([4]), the McGraw-Hill encyclopedia of world drama, the Merriam-Webster encyclopaedia ([5]), the Encyclopedia of World Biography ([6]), The Columbia encyclopedia of modern drama, The Encyclopedia of the Literature of Empire, almost all the monographies about him (eg Gabriele D'Annunzio: Poet of Beauty and Decadence, Gabriele D'Annunzio: Studio Critico, Gabriele D' Annunzio: Defiant Archangel, Gabriele D'Annunzio: le immagini di un mito, Gabriele D'Annunzio in France, Gabriele D'Annunzio by Charles Klopp) etc. etc. Cavarrone (talk) 09:05, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
• Inexplicable Support—I did some quick googling to prove you wrong on this but I only managed to prove you right...That's weird though, who decided to start capitalizing the "D"? Him? Can I decide to start capitalizing say, the fifth letter of my middle name?--Xiaphias (talk) 12:45, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • In Italian this kind of composite surnames starting in Di, De, D', Del, Dell', Delle, Degli, Della (that are all different spellings of the preposition "from") commonly have a capitalized D. It's pretty rare they are spelled with a simple "d". Cavarrone (talk) 13:54, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Del, Dell', Delle, Degli, Della mean "of the". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:57, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
      • These prepositions derivative from "di" have multiple meanings and could be translated in different ways, but in surnames the etymological meaning is always an indication of origin and provenance (that could equally refer to places, persons or families). Cavarrone (talk) 09:34, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
• Uncertain I agree that these names are almost always D. But I thought d'Annunzio wasn't cover Il Piacere, cover of biography, cover Il Libro Segreto. Rather than simply Google-count, can you provide an Italian-language literary scholar that states whether D or d. This is such a major writer surely someone will have discussed this? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:54, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• The Storia generale della letteratura italiana by Nino Borsellino and Walter Pedullà says "D'Annunzio" [7], the Storia della letteratura italiana by Ugo Dotti says "D'Annunzio" [8]. Storia europea della letteratura italiana says "D'Annunzio" too [9]. The Storia della letteratura italiana by Emilio Cecchi and Natalino Sapegno say "D'Annunzio" too. A couple of websites reserved to students, storia della letteratura and studenti.it. About the images you posted, here a different cover for Il Piacere with "D'Annunzio", here a third cover for Il Piacerehere the cover for the same biography you posted with the spelling D'Annunzio. Cavarrone (talk) 20:50, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
• fyi, the first link you posted does capitilize the "D", it was just a smaller font, which is a little ambiguous (but it's clearly capitalized in the "author" text field). I did a search on Google Scholar if I recall and there was a distinct paucity of lower-case "d"s on the first few pages. But for the record, shouldn't we rely on English-language scholars rather than Italian-language ones? --Xiaphias (talk) 20:53, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• Well, I posted in my rationale six English-language encyclopedias that have the capitalization "D'Annunzio" (plus some other monographies about him). Especially the Encyclopædia Britannica appears very significant to me (probably if I haven't find that spelling there I would have withdrawn the whole request). Cavarrone (talk) 21:07, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• Huh? I was referring to In ictu oculi's comment—he said he'd posted 3 examples of lowercase "d"s and I was pointing out that one of them in fact wasn't.--Xiaphias (talk) 02:44, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I know you was referring to it. Probably I should have started my reply with "In fact,...". Cavarrone (talk) 06:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Gentlemen, that is a font known as smallcaps Gabriele d'Annunzio is still Gabriele d'Annunzio on the cover of the edition. As for Amazon's inputting, Amazon's database inputters are not usually qualified university literature professors. Sure an English professor is fine, except that English language biography on d'Annunzio is weak. As I said, it'd be interesting to see an Italian literary scholar's comment rather than just Google numbers. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:11, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:COMMONNAME, titles are determined by "Google numbers" (or better said, by the prevalence of a name in reliable sources). Cavarrone (talk) 06:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• More sources, searching for more encyclopedias, Encyclopedia Universalis([10]), TheFreeDictionary.com ([11]), the Yahoo Education Encyclopedia, Hutchinson Encyclopedia ([12]), The Feminist Encyclopedia of Italian Literature [13], Encyclopedia of modern dictators [14], Encyclopedia of Early Cinema [15], The reader's encyclopedia of world drama [16], The Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics [17], the Gale Contextual Encyclopedia of World Literature [18], The Encyclopedia of the Novel [19], The American Desk Encyclopedia [20], Encyclopedia Or Contemporary Literary Theory, World War I: Encyclopedia, The Encyclopedia Americana, Academic American encyclopedia, The John Updike encyclopedia, Encyclopedia of Latin American theater, The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Folktales and Fairy Tales. Almost all printed and online encyclopedias appear to have the capitalized "D" (only exceptions I have found, Greene's biographical encyclopedia of composers uses both the spellings, World Literature in Spanish: An Encyclopedia mentions a certain "Gabriel d'Annunzio"). Cavarrone (talk) 21:49, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Cavarrone, yes they do. But the article has a footnote 1 "As he used to sign himself (Guglielmo Gatti, Vita di Gabriele d’Annunzio, Firenze, 1956, p. 1-2)." This may well be an affectation (with d’Annunzio that wouldn't exactly be surprising) but nevertheless it'd be nice to know so rather than guess so. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I understand what you want to know. As said in the same article his real name was Francesco Rapagnetta, to which he legally added "D'Annunzio" from the surname of one of his uncles. However there is a small controversity about that, and Guglielmo Gatti in his book Vita di Gabriele d'Annunzio points that the legal name of his uncle was actually "d'Annunzio" so his sign "d'Annunzio" was correct and not an affectation. There is a whole book about history and origins of his surname, La vera origine familiare e il vero cognome del poeta abruzzese Gabriele D'Annunzio but I have no access to it. According the book Il pugnale votivo di Gabriele D'Annunzio (but I have just a snipped view) he however used various spellings, now adopting the capital now the lowercase depending on the particular intonation that he wanted to give to his text (remember that "Annunzio" in Italian means "proclamation", so it has a great symbolic significance). In the book Ancora D'Annunzio there is a small mention about the fact that during his life he complained that "everyone keeps on writing D'Annunzio and not d'Annunzio". To make it short, probably he wanted to be remembered as "d'Annunzio" but against his will he was mainly referred as "D'Annunzio".
That said, per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:UE and WP:PRECISE I think here we should just judge which of these spelling predominate in English language reliable sources, not to find which is the version the subject would have preferred, the legally/historically correct one or the more precise. Cavarrone (talk) 06:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I had heard some of that before, and seen more in scanning down the it.wp article, but that's helpful. I've edited the birth certificate section to make clear he was actually born d'Annunzio and his father, not him, adopted by the "rich uncle" (codeword, natural father).

My main interest, as yours of course, is that the article is accurate and well sourced. I'm not going to object to the move, but honestly counting English (or even Italian) sources on orthographic issues like this is little better than throwing a banana into a cage of chimps and seeing which one it hits. If you could find that complaint "D'Annunzio e non d'Annunzio!" from the poet himself, that's more interesting than the title. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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