Talk:Aurvandill

Untitled

cut explanation of latin iubar, should maybe go to a iubar article (or to Venus)

'beaming light, radiance'. Varro in Lingua Latina Book VII explains specifically: juba dicitur stella Lucifer, that is jubar is called the star Lucifer and Lucifer is the planet Venus.

dab (ᛏ) 09:45, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"Auriwandalo is attested as a historical Lombardic prince!"

Only a little question. Do anybody know some more informations, about this langobardic shape of the name, or the historical source!?

I'm from Finland and I would like to make a point: this word "auriwandalo" reminds me of a Finnish compound word auringonvalo which means sun's light (more specific meanings: luminent, light, essence of light). I was struck by the similarity and find this so much exciting. 85.23.55.252 (talk) 12:21, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

"Auringonvalo" is from Finnish "aurinko" (sun) and "valo" (light) as far as I can find out. "Valo" is from Proto-Finno-Ugric *walk(e)- (light, whiteness) but "aurinko" is a mystery. The connection between "valo" and "*wandilaz" doesn't seem likely, but I guess there is some possibility "aurinko" is somehow related to *"auziz", although a form with aus- seems to be more probable for older borrowings. As far as I could find out, the etymology of "aurinko" is a mystery with no certain cognates found in other Finno-Ugric languages. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:53, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

aurvandil

say what you want. conect it to as many "Germanic" stuff. i connect vandals and aurvandals with vedas and ayurvedas. vedas and ayurvedas were the sanskrit knowledges that were brought by arayans in india 1500 bc. those people were the venethi or wends, that come from vincha culture 4000 bc. their sign was the eight point star that symbolises venus(without the latin "us" is just ven). in india, that original home world of the sanskrit language was called mukh duniya or macedonia. over 79.126.194.121 (talk) 20:31, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Cabell

Besides Tolkien, James Branch Cabell used the name Horvendile in the Biography of the Life of Manuel. —Tamfang (talk) 08:07, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Crist I

The interpretation here, of Earendel as John the Baptist is probably incorrect. For a start the reference to Blickling Homilies is irrelevant.

Also if one looks at the Kenndedy translation http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/Christ_Kennedy.pdf (Top of Page 4) that same section is given as:

"Hail Day-Star! Brightest angel sent to man throughout the earth, and Thou steadfast splendour of the sun, bright above stars! Ever Thou dost illumine with Thy light the time of every season. As Thou, begotten God of God, Son of the True Father,...."

This is clearly reference to Revelation 22-16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." http://biblehub.com/revelation/22-16.htm

I thus contend that the reference here is to Christ himself and not to John the Baptist. I will change this, in a week or so if there are no objections.

GramlerGrindstone (talk) 15:51, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I have been reading that bit over and over for a while now, and looking at all the comments
I wonder. Is it not BOTH?

Venus/John the Babtist:
"Hail Day-Star! Brightest angel sent to man throughout the earth,

The Sun/Christ:
and Thou steadfast splendour of the sun, bright above stars!
Ever Thou dost illumine with Thy light the time of every season.
As Thou, begotten God of God, Son of the True Father,...."

That would also make sense in the context of narrative in John1:1-7.
Also, this again fits with The lines 107b–8 (þu tida gehwaneof sylfum þe symle inlihtes), translated as "all spans of time you, of yourself, enlighten always"
AND it fits with the Homeley's

GramlerGrindstone (talk) 10:18, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Which star is "Aurvandil's Toe?"

This is an interesting question. The Prose Edda passage refers to Aurvandil being "borne out from the North"- surely it cannot then be Sirius which is only visible low in the south from Scandinavia. Orion seems to have been seen as Odin (as in the Wild Hunt) rather than Thor who is the central figure in the Aurvandil legend. The fact that Aurvandil's name means "wanderer" would seem to rule out Polaris, which hardly seems to move in the sky (admittedly it would have done a bit more 1000 years ago than today, but not much).

My suggestion is Arcturus. The Edda passage hints that Aurvandil had somehow become "lost" in the far north, and Thor had gone to bring him back. Arcturus, interestingly, had been a circumpolar star in N Europe from Mesolithic times but started to precess southwards in the last few millennia BCE: it ceased to be circumpolar around 600BCE at 56N (Denmark), 300CE at 61N (central Sweden), 700CE at 64N (Trondheim or Reykjavik). So in Viking times there would be a recent memory of this star having been "lost" in the north. And brought back, as it would only set for a couple of hours. Thor can then be identified as Hercules (paralleling interpretatio romana) and the basket as Corona Borealis. Hercules seems to carry Corona Borealis on his back, with Arcturus dangling below. As Hercules and Corona passed due north circumpolar, and began to climb again, Arcturus would appear out of the horizon "brought back" by them. Seeing Aurvandil's (obviously some kind of king or warrior) toe as Arcturus even opens up the possibility of a parallel with King Arthur legends, as he also may be named after Arcturus and "disappeared". Walshie79 (talk) 01:20, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Aurvandill/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Fairly decent amount of information, but no references, so I cannot give it above a Stub. ErikTheBikeMan (talk) 22:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 22:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 08:37, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Name

"The second part comes from *wanđilaz, a derivative of *wanđaz (cf. Old Norse vandr ‘difficult’, Old Saxon wand ‘fluctuating, variable’, English wander), from *wenđanan which gave in English wend."

*wendaną, which regularly became *windaną, gave English to wind. *wandilaz is an agent noun derived from *wandijaną, the causative-iterative derived from *windaną, which is what gave English to wend. Cf. English bend from *bandijaną against bind from *bindaną. Anglom (talk) 00:45, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

PGmc. form

@Alcaios: Was wondering about your edit to the lede. I don't currently have a secondary source ready showing a Proto-Germanic reconstruction of this term with -z-, but the discovery of auzandil in Gothic a few years ago more or less proves an original form with -z- (as opposed to -r- in Beechy's *auriwandilaz) in Proto-Germanic, as Gothic does not show the effects of rhotacism of s and z that are apparent in Northwest-Germanic (e.g. compare Gothic huzd with hoard, and auso with ear). I am wondering how we could still show the reconstruction with -z- in the lede, as it is simply more likely (especially since the discovery of the Gothic Bologna fragment). Scholarly sources rarely indulge in reconstructing proto-forms of relatively obscure mythological figures (Beechy is an exception), so finding a source is difficult. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 12:10, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Short note: I have added an (older, admittedly) source reconstructing a form without rhotacism. Doesn't look perfect to me either (why -oz?), but at least it shows the -z-. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 12:36, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I just have added the first source I could find on GBooks. The best sources are obviously the linguists, and the reconstructed forms are mentioned by other scholars without being explained. I'll find a better source among linguistic publications. Alcaios (talk) 13:34, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! — Mnemosientje (t · c) 16:08, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Echoes with h₂éwsōs

Aurvandill's abduction by the jǫtnar seems to echo myths where *h₂éwsōs is saved from a peril in the eastern sea by the Divine Twins (a widespread fear among traditional societies that the Sun will not rise up one day led to various myths of the sort across the world). Ēarendel's depiction as the rising light also reminds h₂éwsōs' portrayal as the opener of the doors of Heaven (the redly rising dawn heralds the eternal return of the bright sun crossing the daylight sky). I'm surprised none of the sources I read mentioned it. Alcaios (talk) 21:07, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Have you checked Thompson's Motif-Index of Folk-Literature for motif numbers? There might be some discussion in there—this important resource is currently underutilized throughout Wikipedia's coverage of these topics. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:18, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the tip, I will check it out. I don't think Aurvandill's motifs are referenced by Thompson however, since he focused on oral folk tales rather than written mythology, but I'm not familiar enough with his work to be sure. Alcaios (talk) 21:42, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

There's a lot of stuff in there about Norse myth and ancient Germanic stuff in general, but I think what you'll have most luck with will be individual motifs surrounding a particular concept (like Sun-associated motifs, for example) and any accompanying comparative discussion. I'll take a look within the next few days to see what I can find. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:54, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

So, A270 is "god of dawn' and A270.1 is "goddess of dawn" (p. 103). For A270, Thompson lists Vedic and Greek Indo-European dawn goddess reflexes as examples. (The source Thompson provides for A270 looks to be irrelevant here, but I haven't gotten hold of it.) Some philologists may have somewhere proposed additions to this motif. Twins as cultural heroes is A515.1.1 and you might checkout A710-A739, which contains examples (like A1052.1 "devoured by monster at the end of the world", etc). A lot of these should be better utilized on the site, certainly. :bloodofox: (talk) 11:41, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Earendel (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 21:58, 3 April 2022 (UTC)