Talk:Strait of Gibraltar

Etymology

This article has no mentioning of the reason as to why the strait was named Gibraltar(Jebel Tariq) because of the Muslim leader Tariq ibn Ziyad, if anyone could provide with such information it will be very useful. NoPity2 (talk) 08:48, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

It was named after the Muslim man Gibraltar(Jebel Tariq) who crossed the straight in a raid against Visigoths who occupied what is today known as Spain. The resistance the Islamic raiding band felt from the Visigoths was little and the band decided to stay in Spain, although previously staying was not in the agenda. These events are what caused the founding of Andalusia in Spain which yielded much culture in 1000 CE. Andalusia was much more advanced then any of the other European civilizations at that point, all of which were stuck in a system of localism, leading to little trade in those areas. Since the raiding party was Muslim, the predominant religion in Andalusia after the attack and then final settlement was Islam. However there were some Christians, left over from the time of the Visigoths, as well as Jews. These Visigoths and Jewish settlers after the Islamic raid were faced with the option of conversion, or paying a tax for not being Islamic. If the members of the party did not pay a tax, death was the final option. However between the religions general peace was had.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.64.64.118 (talk • contribs) 23:47, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Its my understanding that the Strait is named after the Rock, and it is the Rock that is named after Tariq. Thus, that particular discussion may be considered irrelevant in this article. Frunobulax (talk) 20:58, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

References

Hydroelectricity Source

What is the potential of this strait and others being used as a source for generating hydroelectricity? With the currents being so powerfull, any size power plant can be constructed to generate electricity silimar to a wind mill, but underwater. Because the strait is so large, Spain and Morocco could build huge hydroelectric plants at the sides that would potentially provide power for hundreds of thousands of homes without much environmental impact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nadyes (talk • contribs) 21:24, 1 May 2007 (UTC).

You're not the first person to think of this: The idea was extensively elaborated by Hermann Soergel in his Atlantropa or Panropa project. However, I agree that this article should at least mention this. Thomas.Hedden (talk) 14:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Is the Mediterranean Sea part of the Atlantic?

The first line of this person states that "The Strait of Gibraltar is the strait that separates the Atlantic Ocean from the Mediterranean Sea." However, the article about the Mediterranean Sea seems to regard that Sea as part of the Atlantic. Maybe this is just a minor issue of wording, or maybe it's just me that even cares about this :p but isn't that contradicting? :) (RagingR2 22:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC))

i've often thought the same thing about morecambe bay in england. these things are apparently easy enough to do, but these ideas just don't happen 86.148.5.19 21:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The main problem is the water will evaporate and the salinity of the sea will greatly increase over time. It has been thought of before "In 1929 Hermann Sorgel proposed using a Gibraltar dam to let the Mediterranean evaporate down 50 meters below its current level. The resulting basin could be tapped for hydroelectric power to make the Sahara bloom".Mantion (talk) 10:09, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The Med is an area of original water production, and extraneous water input, and so it should be regarded as separate from the Atlantic. It is also not a part of the Atlantic's Sverdrup balance, but has it's own distinct western and eastern boundaries. Shallow and salty Adriatic water subducts to the bottom of the Ionian trench. Fresher water also comes from river inputs from the Black Sea and caps the subducting Adriatic water. Salty Med water leaves the Sea and upon entering the Atlantic sinks to some 2300m and stays put. This large "tear drop" of salty water is referred to as Meddy water.115.64.240.228 (talk) 02:39, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Strait or Straits?

Often referred to as "Straits of Gibraltar" e.g. http://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/about_gib/geography/gibmap.htm anyone know which one is official!? User:Mintguy

Straits sounds silly, until I googled it: a strait is both accepted as "strait" and "straits" [1]. Phlebas 14:51, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It also seems to be referred to as Gibraltar Strait and Gibraltar Straits with some regularity, particularly before WWII but still a bit here and there. (1999 BBC example). As for Strait or Straits, strait seems to be an odd word in English, having an optional s on the end for the singular, so "where is the straits" is proper. (If I'm reading dictionary.com correctly.) Strait of Gibraltar is used elsewhere on the Gibraltar government's site (example), but maybe mentioning the other alternatives would be good if a reliable source could be found. I'll add them as redirects to here anyway. -Agyle 01:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Amazing. I have never heard anyone describe this waterway as anything other than the "Straits". Strait sounds ridiculous. I hope this is not yet another example of Wikipedians doing their own personal thing and that this title will be changed to that known by everyone in the English-speaking world: the Straits of Gibraltar. 86.164.77.155 (talk) 19:34, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

"Straits" is the traditional and overwhelmingly preferred form in English. Since some of you don't trust general Google searches or native speakers' experience or dictionaries, then at least trust academic usage. (You've got to trust *something* other than your own preference, right?) For example, I just searched British academic websites (excluding any that mention Wikipedia). There were 14,300 hits for "Straits of Gibraltar" and only about 700 for "Strait of Gibraltar." Clearly, the article should use the preferred and traditional form, with the S on the end. --Steven Capsuto —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.46.167.140 (talk) 18:47, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

So the Wikilink should be Straits of Gibraltar so the proper English term appears in articles, but the annoying green words are not shown. Do others agree?--DThomsen8 (talk) 21:00, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Strait or Straits? A Response

My 26 years in the United States Navy says that its a Strait (singular). There are some Straits - the Turkish Straits (Bosporous and Dardanelles) and The Danish Straits (Kattegat and Skaggerak) for example, but most should be represented as singular; thus, the Strait of Gibraltar is correct. As an aside, one of the oddities of the English language is that its dynamic and evolving. Many grammatical errors of the past are now widely accepted and "authorized" by "authoritative" grammatical texts. "Strait" sounds "ridiculous" to your ear because you've heard it incorrectly referenced so many times. And that's just how the language grows and changes. Thus, one can either try and hold the grammatical line (as I do) or change the language in concert with the masses. One of my favorite examples is the word quay (a wharf). Its correctly pronounced "key" but more frequently mispronounced as "kway". In older dictionaries, only the first pronounciation is given, but in later versions, the second pronounciation is noted as an alternate. No doubt, soon the order will be reversed and eventually the "correct" pronounciation will disappear altogether. But, for now, let's get it right and call the Strait of Gibraltar singular... because it is. There's only one strait there (or, at least, was the last time I passed through it). CharleyHart 14 November 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by CharleyHart (talk • contribs) 14:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

You're working from the common misconception that "strait" originally meant "a narrow body of water." It actually meant "a tight space" or "a narrow space" and began to be extended to water passages around the late 1300s.

As a 14th-century boat progressed up a narrow passage between two larger bodies of water - slowly by modern standards - it encountered a whole series of "straits" in the 14th-century sense of the word. This is why a single narrow passage of water is often referred to as "straits." This usage is preserved in the names of several such passages and is emphatically not a result of poor geography. -- Steven Capsuto

Interesting but... nearly 8-miles wide at its narrowest point does not "a narrow passage of water" make - particularly for ships (really boats) in the 14th century - small by today's standards. But... in good faith, I looked up historical charts and maps of the area (available on line) in Arabic, French, and Spanish. In each case, the strait was noted as singular. I also searched the many online English dictionaries - strait was the only usage in all but one, which had "straits" as an alternate. Finally, the official Government of Gibraltar web site - http://www.gibraltar.gov.gi (who speak the same language as you) refer to it as the Strait of Gibraltar. Additionally, the Spanish exclusively refer to the strait as "el estrecho" (singular - "the strait"). (Admittedly, I do not know how the Moroccans currently refer to the Strait.) But, if the people who live on or near "the rock" call it a strait, then I think we have our answer. CharleyHart (talk) 17:30, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

So the argument for "Strait" is that the United States Navy uses it, and the argument for "Straits" is that the entire English-speaking world uses it apart from some chart-makers in Virginia. That foreign-language words use a singular noun is no guide to the English language. Hogweard (talk) 06:22, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

So, by chance rather than intent, six years after the above discussion, I moved to Morocco and now speak passable Darija (Moroccan Arabic), and can now confirm that the Moroccans also refer to the "Strait" in the singular as "The Gate of the West". Thus, both the Spanish and the Moroccans, whose shores geographically form the Strait of Gibraltar, refer to the strait in the singular; and with that foundation, the decision to "singularize" the name in this article and across Wikipedia is fully justified. So, who writes that "bot"? CarlitosCorazon 16:51, 28 December 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by CharleyHart (talk • contribs)

For Hogweard... Didn't follow your reference to map-makers in Virginia but in response to your comment about the "entire English-speaking world"... They also routinely spell the country of "Colombia" as "Columbia". Are you suggesting the Colombians should as well? Or that the English-speaking world gets to decide how words are spelled or used in non-English-speaking countries... Like Spain or Morocco? If so, please change your user name to Howweird... 'Cause I think that sounds better. CarlitosCorazon 17:03, 28 December 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by CharleyHart (talk • contribs)

On Google Ngram from 1800 to date Straits of Gibraltar is nearly always the more popular term, ie not Strait of Gibraltar. Also The OED under 'strait' gives the example 'The Straits of Gibraltar'. In British English the Straits is by far the better known form. I think that this term should have equal billing with Strait. Llamawright (talk) 16:29, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

The OED gives both for the name: singular Strait of Gibraltar for US English[2], and plural Straits of Gibraltar for UK English[3]. In both cases, the examples refer to the body of water next to the rock as being singular: The rock of Gibraltar stands 450m high, dominating the narrow strait into the Mediterranean from the Atlantic Ocean. Bazza (talk) 17:34, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, I am not suggesting that the term strait is incorrect only that the term straits is also correct. There are many references to the Straits of Gibraltar and as a name and the title of the article they should both be available. Please note also that the OED when defining 'strait' immediately proceeds with '(or straits)' meaning that both are synonymous and acceptable, for a narrow body of water. Please check on Google Ngrams and you will see that the term 'Straits of Gibraltar' is more common. So I think equal emphasis on the title phrase is reasonable. Anyway, I'm not wishing to argue the point, I've said my piece. Llamawright (talk) 21:55, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Please indent your replies. As stated above, I was not addressing the generic term strait or straits, but the name for Gibraltar's one(s). I know that the OED gives both generic versions, as I supplied both references which say so. I have been WP:BOLD and added the plural version as an alternative in the article's opening paragraph, with a reference. Bazza (talk) 09:06, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

nice picture

This article may benefit from the picture at http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA03397 --Joy [shallot] 15:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

barrage - required at both ends

The article mentions that a barrage could be created to hold in the Mediterranean sea, but the mediterranean sea already has a sea-level lock-less channel to the red sea. So it would have to be locked here as well.

I am not an expert on waterflows. What you say sounds logical, but maybe it also has to do with wind directions, etc? I mean, maybe the in- and outflow at Gibraltar is bigger even now than it is atth Suez Canal? While the Strait of Gibraltar is only a narrowing of the sea, the Suez Canal is pretty long; it flows right through Egypt, consisting of two parts with a big lake in between, so are you sure the Suez Canal allows any considerable in- or outflow? I'm just speculating of course...(RagingR2 10:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC))

Length of Bridge

I don't understand why the article says "would dwarf any existing bridge in height (over 900 metres) and length (15 km)". The article for the Bering Strait Bridge, as well as the article for the Lake Pontchartrain Causeway both list the LPC as having a length of 38.42 km long. This is FAR longer than 15 km. We should revise this statement. Maybe just include height? User:cathenryinc

Submarines during WWII

Hello!

I disagree with this statement:

The Strait of Gibraltar has a very strategic location. Ships that travel from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean, and vice versa, pass through this strait overlooked by the Rock of Gibraltar. Also, a great many people who travel between Europe to Africa cross through this strait. During World War II, the British controlled the straits from their nearby base. German submarines entering the Mediterranean Sea were effectively trapped, because they could not leave on the surface and the undersea currents were too strong to leave underwater.

I would argue exactly the opposite was the case, as quoted from http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/439:

Another answer to this question has to do with the physics of thermohaline circulation. The Atlantic Ocean on average contains roughly 34-36ppt of "salt" to water (it's not salt when in solution, but that's beside the point). The enclosed, shallow Medterranean sea on the other hand, has salinity in excess of 38ppt. Saltier water is heavier (which is why you float more easily in the ocean or in the dead sea) and sinks. Thus, "fresher" Atlantic seawater enters the Gibraltar at the surface and upper levels of the strait, whereas the saltier water naturally exits the sea to the Atlantic at lower depths. U-boats simply had to submerge to the correct circulation depth, cut their engines for a few hours, and ride the current past the Strait! Getting back in was another issue completely, but as mentioned previously, it was both possible and done.

I believe this topic requires an expert on the subject.

Yuser31415 06:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I've removed this piece of text since it's existed for over a month without a source:

The Strait of Gibraltar has a very strategic location. Ships that travel from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean, and vice versa, pass through this strait overlooked by the Rock of Gibraltar. Also, many people who travel between Europe to Africa cross through this strait. During World War II, the British controlled the straits from their nearby base. German submarines entering the Mediterranean Sea were effectively trapped, because they could not leave on the surface and the undersea currents were too strong to leave underwater.

Best wishes, Yuser31415^@?#& 04:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I've edited this part of the text, figured I should mention it here.

During the Second World War, German U-boats used the currents to pass in and out of the Mediterranean Sea without detection, by maintaining silence with engines off.

The rest of the paragraph goes on to explain that the U-boats were only able to enter the Mediterranean, not exit, so I've changed that to be "used the currents to pass into the Mediterranean...". I'm not an expert on these currents, but I thought this should agree with the rest of the paragraph. Drunaii (talk) 22:40, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Hello, during WWII Italians submarines forced the Strait 45 times with no losess (back and forward), in immersion or navigating in surface during 1940-1942. The first submarine able to enter Atlantic Ocean going all the way long in immersion was the VENIERO, the 7th of July 1940. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.14.112.202 (talk) 14:51, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Alantropa

Alantropa was a plan to damn the Strait and produce electricity and develop Africa, Should we add a section about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mantion (talk • contribs) 10:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Hello, during WWII Italians submarines forced the Strait 45 times with no losess (back and forward), in immersion or navigating in surface during 1940-1942. The first submarine able to enter Atlantic Ocean going all the way long in immersion was the VENIERO, the 7th of July 1940.

Expansion

• Strait of Gibraltar- there is very little mentioned about the historical significance of this passage. C1k3 04:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Has been over 6 months. has been moved to talk page. Please expand soon. Vinh1000 (talk) 13:11, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

El Estrecho Natural Park

I don't know if it's because of vandalism, but the article stated that "the British part of the Strait is protected under the El Estrecho Natural Park" when it is not true. I've changed it to say "The Iberian side of the strait is protected under the El Estrecho Natural Park".

A map can be found here. Feel free to include it in the Natural Park's article, as I think it is in the Wikipedia Commons. Cremallera (talk) 00:06, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Reading the history of the article I see it's clearly vandalism. I'll leave it as it always has been: "The Spanish side of the strait is protected under the El Estrecho Natural Park". Cremallera (talk) 00:25, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

By the way, I've adressed the citation tag pending on this statement "Due to its location, the strait is widely used for illegal immigration from Africa to Europe".Cremallera (talk) 00:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

First Inhabitants

The article says that the first human inhabitants were Neanderthals. Are Neanderthals classified as human? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.252.4.21 (talk) 15:23, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, though not fully modern humans. They were of the genus homo and most people today would call them human rather than apes or animals.83.254.151.33 (talk) 08:17, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Salt mines

Are there " ...salt mines now found under the sea floor all over the Mediterranean..."? Salted is mined beneath the floor of the Sea? How do they get the salt to the surface? Gimelgort 22:11, 31 January 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gimelgort (talk • contribs)

Interacted with

The Strait's depth ranges between 300 and 900 metres... which possibly interacted with the lower mean sea level of the last major glaciation. Really no idea what is meant by this sentence. I wonder if someone who knows what is being alluded to might rephrase it suitably? C0pernicus (talk) 11:12, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

AN import metric for oceanography is the sill depth, which has not been stated in the article. It is the maximum water depth for which any water path of constant depth can be traced through the strait.115.64.240.228 (talk) 02:42, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Latin name

The reference we have for the Latin name Fretum Gaditanum is weak. I have seen Fretum Herculeum is used in medieval sources, but I can't find in my limited searches that it was used by the Romans. Are we sure what the Romans used? --Error (talk) 10:44, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Exactly between what two points does one refer to when saying Spain is 14 miles from Morrocco?

I sought this information within the wiki article on the Strait of Gibraltar but it was not there. So I resewrched using maps and found the two points on each respective continrnt that equals 14 miles, but someone deleted my edit saying that these places don't exist. If you are going to say that Soain is 14 miles from Morocco, understand that that implies there are two soecific piints between which you are measuring. People might wonder out of curiosity exactly where on these ciasts can one stand to be 14 miles from the other point, zs I did. I see no reason to keep this information secret. It would enhance the value of the page and its usefulness to include this detail. So why try and hide this location's identity from the public as one editor seems to want to do? Zengalileo (talk) 23:00, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

@Zengalileo: Find a reliable source which states the locations you used. I reverted your edit because searching for El Bujero on Google only returns information about Tenerife. Bazza (talk) 09:34, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

I have done that and updated the page. Bazza (talk) 09:44, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Using Google Maps' measure-distance tool, Punta de Tarifa and Point Cires are about 15km apart. I don't find any gaps as small as 13km; the smallest gap that I find is about 14km, Point Cires to Punta de Oliveros. (I do see the 13km number in the Britannica article, but can't duplicate it on the map.) Can anybody figure out where the discrepancy comes from? I get slightly larger results (than I get with Google Maps) using a lat/lon distance calculator and the coordinates listed for Point Cires and Punta de Tarifa. Jordan Brown (talk) 01:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@Jordan Brown: Is your well-meaning calculation using Google Maps a WP:RS reliable source? I doubt it. The Britannica reference is reliable and you can confirm what it says by reading it. If you can find other reliable and published sources with different values, then add them to the article. Bazza 7 (talk) 08:19, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Google Maps is presumably a WP:RS. My measurements on Google Maps are WP:OR. You'll notice that I didn't edit the article; I asked here in talk. I agree that Britannica is a RS, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's correct... and if it isn't correct, it would be nice to figure out why and find a better source. Or if Google Maps is somehow giving the wrong answer, or if my measurement is somehow wrong, that would be interesting too. Maybe Britannica is measuring from some obscure dot of a micro-island that I'm just not seeing. Jordan Brown (talk) 13:43, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I really doubt that Google Maps could be so wrong with its measurement tool and despite being a reliable source, the Britannica may be wrong sometimes. I found another source (NASA website) where it is reported a width of 7.7 *nautical* miles, that is a bit more than 14 km, so it closely matches what you get with Google Maps. I do think that the error in Britannica (or in the source used by Britannica) is due to a confusion between nautical and standard miles (8 nautical miles is 14.5 km, 8 miles about 13). I was feeling bold and corrected the page, including the new source. Maybe we could add this explanation in the notes... Eylenbosch (talk) 17:57, 27 August 2024 (UTC) BTW it was already correct in the simple english version Eylenbosch (talk) 17:58, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, my guess was that the error was the result of repeated conversion and rounding, but I agree that a nautical vs statute mile error could easily be the core of the problem. Jordan Brown (talk) 19:39, 27 August 2024 (UTC)