User talk:Greyengine5/footer related comments in RLtalk

RL I thought our debate on the footer was going well. I am thouroughly dissapointed with your last comment. I was disgusted by its vauge reference to other resolved incidents, what appears an attempt to broaden the scope of debate, and -most damaging- a false personal accusation. It was a proverbial 'slap in the face' to me that nothing short of apology from you would resolve. Greyengine5 08:20, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I dont appreiciate your comments, nor your argument tactics. As much as I have enjoyed many of your articles, your the only user that has made the wiki a unpleasant experiece for me. I reccomend you overhall your discussion tactics, and avoid, in particular, expanding from the issue at hand or making personal comments. As for the footer, I made my stance clear on the page. I still think it was a good resolution, and, once again I am not 'against' any of the standards. As for finding 'non-stub' pages for you which I have indeed done, your welcome to find them yourself. I niether think thats a good measure of what people contribute, nor is it even acceptable to ask that. I have never, and would not require you to generate this as it would be a insult to you, and to the very nature of the wiki, aside from wasting time.Greyengine5 22:03, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Endless vauge insults, shifting of issues, inflammatory comments- this what I was recommending you change. Your response contains many things that-to borrow a phrase I 'predicatably disagree' with. You say you are not concerned with how 'pleasant' you are- I hope you change from this attitude. To say I need to 'find another project to monkey around with' is a inflammatory and disrespectfull comment. To suggest I have a double standard for 'wiki freedom' is also false, as, when issues arise a fair comprimise is reached- something that I have even done with you. As for content issues with the footer etc.- as you've been pointing out its clear we are partly victims of commonly held differing views- deltionist vs inclusionist etc. I think its fine to continue with comprimises as we'v done, though they must be reached sooner and with less wasted time,effort, etc.. Greyengine5 02:48, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Just to round things out- thanks for the complement. Pehaps we can work on standards for general data tables as well? Greyengine5 03:16, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I dont expect you to temper- Im not one to hold grudges anyway. If its done, its over, and if we could just work in peace together on aircraft that would be compensation enough. I do need to clear up what I think is misunderstanding, though. I don't want to change the current footer (or the table)- its done (at least not for a long time(change it that is)). The tuplev thing was about creating a new, more specialzed standard just for those pages. Just as one day the current air footer may just be a specialized subset of a 'transportation' footer, new footer/boxes could be a subset of it. To put things in perspective here, I had actually considered trying to go through an update to our current data table standard after seeing the wide range out there ( even beyond what been caused by tinkering). Indeed your boldness is correct- I thourghly agree, and I have diverted much time into this. Speaking of which, you may be happy to know I have just converted the List of military aircraft of Japan and welcome any work/ideas as you suggest. One idea, I noticed your work with japanese characters- perhaps we can get japanese character in there as well. I also thought it might be better to split it to before ww2 and after so it would be easier to inlcude codenames, or things like numbers lost to enemy fire. I have little doubt that airpages can become the most standardized, comprhensive, organized, data set of the whole wiki. Greyengine5 07:00, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Btw, in case you wondering, yes I had been working on the jap page for a couple hours before you suggested the concept- your comment reaffirmed the usefullnes of that sort of thing to me thoguh. Im going to try and add in the japanese character for pages that have them listed- in case you wanted to add some more as well. As for my tendancy not to write full articles- I'v made few attempts to write longer text for new pages, but I'v shayed away since my text got rewritten or totally replaced. As result I keep it text to minimum to aviod having this sort of experience. As for the tup footer, I like your tup series box, but I also like the one on that page and I think both full good niche. I prefer the series box idea to creating a whole 'nother footer (like th air box thing) in general, but in this case I wanted to keep what fikri worked on- and I thought it may have some potential in its own right. If you want to develop more of these series boxes I'll be happt to help you distribute them, as this is just what I had wanted to to after totally general air-list box- (create more specific boxes for sub-groups). Well I hope that further clears things up. Greyengine5 18:12, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Just you give you and update here and 'discussion methods'. I highly reccomend you shift away form protracting discussions. It wastes yours and my time, better spent on aircraft ,etc. Are comprimises perfect?- no but I think its important to aviod this endless continuations drawing these things out, or at least give it rest for some time. Notably, as I'v mentioned before- changing to other issues, personal criticisms, and re-starting/raising issue with things that have already been comprimised on are extending things far beyond neccesary. For new footer, just to reiterate, I did not want to change the basic footer. I am interested in new footer/boxes like the tup footer or your tup-air-civ thing. Seperate from this, I put some thoughts on the engine table there, as asked me about before. Greyengine5 22:16, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well I reccomend you distill down what exactly the problem is so we can resolve it. These protacted debates are unacceptable. Greyengine5 22:57, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough, but protacted debates are still not acceptable. The amount of my time you'v wasted with them, the personal insults, etc. have been unwelcome to say the least. I didn't make the footer, fikri did. I know you have problems with it, that what we disagree on. Tell you what, change a standard footer to what you think it should be on those pages (as it was different from the actual design intially anyway). The only reason I touched that std. footer design in the 1st place was to comply with your problem with duplicate material- so I merged 'similar aircraft' row. While your at it make 'fikri-footer' modified to your satisfaction and we'll see where were at then. Greyengine5 04:12, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Disccussion about the footer details should probably take place on the footer page. (for our future reference)

If you get out in the world, you'll understand that saying lies about people is considered insulting.

Your the only person I'v had problems resolving issues with. I'v noticed you'v had some problems with other people as well. I think your the problem here, or at least your methods.

How many times must I say I support the standard footer! I support the standard footer Feel free to update them to maximum spec.

How many time must I say I like your tup-civ-box idea! I like your tup-civ-box idea. I have things just like this in mind for other pages.

Fikri is an aviation proffesional and he crafted his own footer for a group of pages. I think it can co-exist with our project standards without weakening it. Just as the data table is unique to airplanes, his footer can be unique to those aircraft.

While I actually agree with the majority of your technical points, replacing fikri's footer with tup box(essentially fikri's cut to one line of info) is tanamount to elimnating it altogether. When the main thing Im arguing for is its continued exisitance, this should be predictably unacceptable.

My earlier question remains- what modifications, other then replacing it with 1 line msg, to his footer would make it acceptable? Greyengine5 06:24, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

It was a liitle more then just that, but I'v lost track of the number personal accusations you incorporate into a normal disscussion. Some you'v redacted so I'll cut you some slack. As for wrting a full page, I'v worked on many parts of pages, sections. For non-stubs that I'v created, there are few, as I stated earler in two cases much of what I had done was rewritten so I have since shyed away from putting a lot work into writing a new page, and generally stick to shorts or adding sections in that area. The Dornier Do 10 while not overly long, took a inordinate amount of time to research and was by no means a stub. The Morane-Saulnier M.S.406 was under average, but longer then many others (this one was before the data-tables etc). This one was entirely rewritten, quite frustating given that its among just a handfull of the othter ww2 french types that are done-but such is how the wiki is.(partly why I hated to see fikri stuff reverted, I hate to see peoples work dissapear(i.e npov usefull content,etc). On the shorter side P-2 Neptune(since added to), and few other scattered about. Going back to inclusion verse deltist, I actually favor shorter articles for most craft- short and to the point, at least till more pages even have a article. For big types or after more are done, thats when it make sense- of course the state of articles varies wildly as its depedendent n whatever people want to put articles for. To get back back to the issue at hand,- the footer. I was never to fond of the type desgination, though I did find the term use interesting so lets cut that out then. Similair aircraft can go either place. I put it in the fikri, to aviod loosing the 'comparable' name. Perhaps that similair can be supplanted at some point comparable as you suggested, though it probably doesn't matter much either way. So that can just be part of the standard footer then. Bureas and codename I do quite like however. For them I propose turning the burea name into links to lists of there repective company aircrafts- so you could quicky jumpt to all the sukhoi aircraft rather then just a company article. I think there's real benfit to being able to jump to other russian planes, and that probably makes more sense then just linking to there company pages. As for codename, I would like to see this turned into a row as well so you can between them by there nato- codenames. There's alot of people who know these planes by there codenames, and, I though it was kind of interesting naming convention. Well let me know what you think of this- I hope better then what we'v come up so far. As I stated earlier, I would vastly prefer working away peacefully on pages with you then all this endless bickering back and forth. I could have written several full articles for the amount of time diverted into this! Greyengine5 18:22, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Whoa lot of stuff there- just to clarify MS 406 was the most text I can find off hand, and was not a stub. Early flying machines was off the cuff, and for the rest- some hits and some misses, not really worth getting into. As for the footer, Ill just jump to remaning issues. Rather then turning burueas into links to specific lists(lot of work as u mention) or just one link, how bout just links to spots on the bigger list(using that code feature). Either a list of russian aircraft or the airliners- I haven't checked whats how there in terms of lists. Civ. versus milt is not so important I think with russian planes since a lot of those 'civilian' planes were duel use anway(not that other planes aren't). Either that or a whole 'russian' list box could be made to link to all those things mentioned there, though this same content could probaly jsu tbe incoroporated into the footer.

As for codename, you raise some good points and I half agree. However, I think it needs to stay in some form. These codenames are much more synonomous with these airplanes- many times the only name mentioned in books and media, so it goes beyond just offering content, but catering to how these planes have been refered to. In recognition of this and other ideas that could be gathered in there support, but also recognizing the 'mixed bag' it is for them to be there- I propose yet another compromise. The category is kept, but rather then listng all the codenames (which run into pov), just the one for that aircraft and two links- one to a article talking about codenames, and another to page listing nato/russian codenames. I think at some point, whether or not people find things pleasant to recongnize, many aircraft were part of wars and codenames part of that. Correctly reporting history is a stand this project needs to make. If we can get the russian codenames for Nato planes, I'd be all for that as well. Codenames for aircraft of the cold war are especially important as some owe there whole existance to a craft known only by secret names. I understand why your against it, and in many ways it would be easy for me to agree- but it strikes me as wrong to let it slide. It seems like a revision of history not to recognize the nature of of the planes and there 'many names'- to minimize them to just a brief mention. The compromise I think makes it more acceptable, since it moves away from suggesting that its a 'NATO' article. (althought the soviets did keep an active interest in nato codenames of there aircraft as well).

Yes I agree we might just be nearing the end (*gasp). I will suggest, that while this may be prefferable to true edit war, there is third option to even discussing it. A visual discussion, where we pass a design back and forth till its acceptable- rather then using a 'thousand words' it might just be easier to work on the design. Well- just a thought anyway.

Attempt at a summary (not related to the idea I just said btw)

Design Bureau- turned into links to manufacturers (of the same list-using code)

Type Designation- Tupolev Tu-204 (your out)

Related Variants- (civil) Tu-206 - Tu-216 (never a issue)

Nato codename- (tbd-see above)(just 1, name links to page on codenames)

Primary Designation- (not a issue)

Comparable Aircraft- moved to standard footer; 'comparable' kept on drawing boards as potential replacement name.

Related Lists- (moved to standard; even more customized list links?)

On whole nother note, I have interesting idea- if and when any revision are made to a footer, I propose replacing as much as possible with msg's to escape the improvement versus distributon paradox. Having air content be in line with proffesional aviation definitions is good long term goal, as any constructed definition is going to lack defintions.

Finally - RL thanks for your complements.

- Greyengine5 02:55, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Allright, with it being easter I'll keep this short as well. Visual vs text - its whatever the sitituation demands, in seemed like a good idea since the end game is a box with links in it. Ok 1 has was already rejected, and you'v forgot a lot in 2. . Given all the problems lets just leave them as links to the bureas, and let the details of the transport link can be worked out later. I'll agree to your nato deal if you'll let the links to design bureas's stay. As for civ- vis milt given that some 'transports' had glazed noses and most of these fucntioned as military transport as well I dont see to much of problem. Also, most of the company pages have list of there respective aircraft so its no just company info being linked to. Just like anything in wiki, its just a steping stone to something better- so I fully agree its time to move on.

Russian Civil Transport Aircraft
Design Bureaus	Antonov - Beriev - Ilyushin - Kamov - MiG- Mil - Lavochkin - Sukhoi - Tupolev - Yakovlev
Related Variants (civil)	Tu-206 - Tu-216
Primary Designation Series	{{tu-civ-trans-text}}
See also	Antonov civil transports - Ilyushin civil transports - Yakovlev civil transports

Footer2

Ok this thing isn't going to be a 1 line msg. You never said related variants was a problem. Your 'see also' is neat but it could be in the standard ft, or left out. Look, my offer stands- Ill trade your nato designation offer(gone) for design bureas(kept). I can appreciate your desire for it to be for linking not content providing, npov, etc. However, you'v demonstrated you dont have a problem with intra-wiki footers for groups- so at this point its just a debate over the degree of content(which will end up changing anyway). If you dont have problem with linking to lists of aircraft then it makes no sense not to link to the other bureas, which are mostly just lists at this point.

If you just 'don't like it' thats not enough as, fikri has just as much right to customize those pages as anyone else, just as surely as we have right to have the project. That he's a avitaion proffestional adds even more value to a contibution. Iv given a lot of ground here- some deserved- some to be 'conciliatory', but your going to need more cogent arguments to convince me further.

Iv noticed that you'v removed personal criticisms,stuck to the issue at hand, etc. with your last response. I totally applaud this growth as I think it will benfit both you and especially the wiki. (I cant stress enough how much this is appreciated). The fact remains however, that this sort thing would have taken a small fraction of time for me to resolve with anyone else. I'v been willing to invest a lot of time as matter of courtsey and responsibility (as have you) in sorting this out, but its fast become an unreasonable amount.

In light of all table issues I think things have gone long enough to transition into a new 'track'. We could table the issue(put it aside) or move up the reccommend hierarchy of dispute mediation. Im not totally sure where things lie now, but I think we need a mediator (do these have to be admins?) for some input, or arbitration. Iv never had a problem like this before, but this seems to be what happens in these cases.

On the other issues you mention there, it all sounds quite good. The mediawiki concept as well as this idea for drafting releases for stepping sounds neat as well. I posted some various dribble there on the engine table page as well. In the meantime, as far as air pages go I'll try to work on more full pages and continue with tables. Also, for the piaggio, just 'piaggio avanti' turns up more google hits, but the manufacture released it as 'P-180 Avanti' (according to one book). I dont have a problem with it as avanti but we seem to stick to 'official' names. Mines as well wait till they releae another one I guess. Thats all, look forward to your inputs. Greyengine5 02:19, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I understand the nature of wiki contributions- the issue is maintaning usefull information and assessing its level of credability.

Bureas is just a way of linking to other russian planes- we already convered that it makes no difference to whether its to lists, places to a page with lists, etc. Whats important is all the names are there for ease of access.

Without going through all these things again, once again, some points I have no problem ceding, some I have disagree, and some I flat out agree.

Its been this way since I saw your first post.

Lets remeber this is not some all encompasing things here- its small custimized footer for nine pages. If this was happening all over the place, you might have more of case. Your talking about it like its this is going to go everywhere and will ruin the whole project. I reccomend we just put it to vote on the airproject page, and be done with it. Greyengine5 06:03, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Done

I didn't think its underhanded at all, and though you would actually like it. The debate wasn't about 'large footers' it was about fikri's and putting customized content into a footer. Which I as far as that goes, Im starting to agree with you more and more.

I have considered just withdrawing drawing support for that idea so we could get on with things, and was going to show you the standardized USAF as proof I was actually interested in abiding by that idea. I already supported the idea of standarized content (i.e the air box), and the logic in people points really turned things around for me.

As far accusing me of character issues, I noticed that you to, once in a more pubic debate make a much greater attempt to be pleasant, trutfull, and leave out personal criticism. I didn't admire the lack of these qualities in our previous debates, and seeing more normal commentary from other wikians and you make me realize how improper you were really being.

I view this sort of behavior and shape-shifting in the lowest regard in real life, and find it equally bad in the wiki. I don't think this behevior benfits the wiki nor are you somehow redeemed by your articles.

Consider whatever ties we had in the form of a 'working relationship' etc. to be over, at least for a very long time. I hold no 'grudge' against you, but I dont wish to have involment of a person of your qualities.

As per my above points your free to change fikri's back to your wishes or the projects. As I said, the points people are making are very good, new arguments which changed my mind.

As for the usaf box, which I had thought abided by standardization/focus etc. I was hoping would be a standard format for other airforces (on the transferable idea). I was using it to update all the related pages and found it quite usefull (in the 'yards'). However, If the whole idea of footers for sub-groups is rejected by consensus then it will go as well.

That is all RL, good luck on